A response to: Is the Shroud of Turin authentic?
Matthew Cserhati, Robert Carter
https://creation.com/turin-shroud?fbclid=IwAR0maqWoRPKObevu93eiDgSKEyX4qLAQfrshTTO9lkG6t67G9vPlox_VnkYClaim: Jesus was wrapped up in multiple burial clothes, not just one.Reply:
Do the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) contradict the Gospel of John in regards of the burial cloths of Jesus? Was Jesus wrapped (ἐντυλίσσω—wrap) it in a clean linen cloth, or, as John reports, tied it (δέω—tie, bind; wrap??) by strips of linen (ὀθόνιοις—dat. of means) in company with the spices?
Perhaps the answer or solution to this apparent problem is that John, an eyewitness of these events, was not in fact speaking to exactly the same part of the burial activity as the other three writers who received their information second hand, but to a quite different aspect of the process of which he personally was aware and which is not that well known today. Taken literally, John appears to be saying that the body of Jesus was “tied with linen strips” (ὀθόνια) in connection with his burial. If we then use his account of the burial of Lazarus some chapters earlier to help with the interpretation of just what is meant (“the feet and hands bound with cords,” John 11:44) we would have to say this tying of Jesus also probably was applied to the hands and feet, not to the whole body. The Lazarus account goes on to say, “λύσατε—loose/untie him” (KJV); (not: “take off the grave clothes” - NIV) and let him depart.” Then the picture becomes clear and the items mentioned later in the gospels that were found by the first visitors to the grave, the linen strips and the folded cloth, can be put into better perspective. The gospels are not in conflict—no Scripture is. Rather, it is much more likely that our understanding of Jewish burial practices simply has not been that clear now after a span of almost 2000 years. And it may have been a preconception or simple misconception on the part of both early and later translators that attempted to force from John’s words a parallel meaning to the first three gospels in regard to the wrapping of Jesus, when in fact he was speaking to something quite different—a tying of the limbs to hold them in position at the time of burial due to rigor mortis rather than a separate wrapping or covering of the entire body with strips.Claim:A separate head cloth was used, which the Lord took off after He arose from the dead.Reply:THE SUDARIUM CHRISTI - THE FACE CLOTH OF CHRISThttps://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7145
In the Cathedral of Oviedo in northern Spain is a linen cloth called the Sudarium Christi, or the Face Cloth of Christ. It is often referred to as the Cloth of Oviedo. The Sudarium Christi is a poor-quality linen cloth, like a handkerchief, measuring 33 by 21 inches. Unlike the Shroud of Turin, it does not have an image. However, it does have bloodstains and serum stains from pulmonary edema fluid which match the blood and serum patterns and blood type (AB) of the Shroud of Turin.Claim:The hair on the man in the Shroud hangs downward and his beard is also intact, both of which contradict Scripture.Reply:Did Jesus brake the law of the OT by wearing long hair ?https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7135Without a proper understanding of what the rules were regarding hair, you will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion concerning the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. In 1 Corinthians 11:14, the Apostle Paul declares that long hair is a disgrace to men, yet the man of the Shroud apparently has shoulder-length hair. What constitutes "long hair" depends on one's own culture's subjective view; Paul himself would probably have had shoulder-length hair, as that was the norm for Jewish men of his day; and what Paul was speaking about is "men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women" Our concept of what Paul meant by `long hair' is usually affected by our own views of what constitutes long hair. While Paul was speaking of effeminate men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women, Paul himself would probably have worn shoulder-length hair in keeping with the hairstyle of the other orthodox Jews of his day. As a matter of fact, the traditional style for an orthodox Jewish man of two thousand years ago is much the same for him today: a ponytail of hair and sidelocks-precisely what we see on the Shroud." 1 Corinthians points out that, based on the original Greek, what Paul was talking about was not "hair as such" but "hairdo":"[1 Cor] 14-15 ... Vs. 4 reads: having his head covered, lit. from the head; vs. 6 distinguishes between a not covering of the head and a cutting short of the hair, apparently assuming that even if the head is not covered the hair may still be long. The solution of this question must be sought in the two different words for hair which the Greek uses. [triches and kome] The first one means hair as such; the second, which is used here, means the hairdo, hair that is neatly held by means of ribbon or lace. That also fits the context which shows that the Corinthian women did not cut their hair short (vs. 6), but that they took it down in ecstasy." This is confirmed by the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, which shows that the words translated "a man wears long hair" (lit. "he wears his hair long") is one Greek word κομη (kome) (Marshall, A., 1966, "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament," p.686).Claim:There is no trace of the large quantity of sticky spices with which Jesus is known to have been buried.Reply:
All of the Gospels convey the information that Christ's burial was hasty and incomplete because of the approaching Sabbath. In the earlier accounts of Mark and Luke, the women are said to be returning on Sunday morning to anoint the body with ointments prepared over the Sabbath, when washing a body for burial was effectively forbidden by the ritual prescription of moving or lifting a corpse.Claim:
The height of the man in the Shroud does not match that of a first century Jewish man. The arms seem to be distorted and disproportional. And the argument that the head is leaning forward is hard to believe.Reply: This is a weak argument. Jesus could have been a bit taller than average. There is nothing impossible in this regard. Claim:
While the 14C dates of the Shroud may be contestable, there is still no positive evidence that the Shroud dates to the first century. Palynology has not helped to clarify anything.Reply: https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7139
There is plenty of new evidence that permits a rational conclusion, that the Shroud is from the 1st. Century. Claim:The historical record is incomplete. At best, there is a 500-year gap between the Crucifixion and the first attestation to the Image of Edessa.Reply:https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7144In the beginning of the history of the Church, the Jesus burial sheet was probably kept hidden for several reasons: first of all, it was a very precious “memory,” having enveloped He who sacrificed Himself on the Cross. Furthermore, Christians feared that someone could seize and destroy it: the Hebrews, in compliance with Mosaic Law, considered everything that had touched a corpse as impure; and not Hebrews judged the punishment of crucifixion as ignominious. The reasons why the protectors of the Shroud wanted to keep it hidden are then clear. Nino, who evangelized Georgia under the Constantine empire (306–337), inquired after the Shroud to Niafori, his master, and to other Christian scholars of Jerusalem. He learned that the burial cloths had been for some time in possession of Pilate’s wife, and after, they were handed by Luke the evangelist, who stored them in a safe place known only to himself. In the fourth century, in Edessa there was the certainty that the city owned an image of Christ, created by God and not produced by the hands of man. It is said that when the image was shown it was folded in eight layers: the result of creasing the Shroud in this way gives a long rectangle with the head in its center, without a neck. This is exactly the same image shown in the copies of the Image of Edessa.