Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design

This is my personal virtual library, where i collect information, which leads in my view to the Christian faith, creationism, and Intelligent Design as the best explanation of the origin of the physical Universe, life, and biodiversity


You are not connected. Please login or register

Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design » Bible / Christian faith / Apologetics » The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Go down  Message [Page 2 of 3]

Otangelo


Admin

Turin Shroud hands’ region analysis reveals a part of the right thumb

https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207416301625

A restoration of the TS image in the hands’ region has shown patterns compatible with the right hand’s thumb (the upper extremity of it). The right hand’s thumb appears in a non-relaxed position, adjacent to the palm of the hand, but positioned below it and, therefore, almost completely hidden by the index finger except for its end. The image of this thumb controverts the hypothesis of a medial counterfeiting of the relic. The Barbet’s hypothesis that the absence of the thumbs into the TS image, considered as one of the main indirect proofs of the authenticity of the relic, has been confirmed but it needs to be reformulated according to new information obtained by our analysis of the TS man’s hands region. Indeed, the presence of the upper extremity of the right hand’s thumb, in a non-relaxed position, adjacent to the hand’s palm but positioned below it, and outgoing from it, implying a possible state of stress, fixed by the rigor mortis, can be considered an indirect proof of the crucifixion of the TS man and, consequently, of the authenticity of the relic. To the best of our knowledge, it is the first time that a TS analysis has disclosed image features compatible with the anatomic parts of a thumb. These results are of wide interest in the long-lasting scientific debate about the authenticity of the relic since the absence of visibility of the thumbs has been considered as one of the most important indirect proof that the Turin Shroud wrapped the body of a man who was crucified alive. 

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Hand10

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/LavoieWeb.pdf

https://flora.org.il/books/turin/

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

The Shroud of Turin provides amazing evidence for the resurrection of Jesus

One common claim of atheists is that 'there is NO evidence of the historical Jesus'' Because ALL the Bible and ancient writings of Jesus could be written by anyone and were written by so many people, years after the events, which could easily be made up.

The shroud provides to the lost world the forensic facts and evidence of the horror of Jesus going to the cross. The Shroud bears the ultimate triumph of the Resurrection of Jesus (Yeshua) meaning Salvation. All this is recorded supernaturally on The Shroud of Turin, which proves the Holy Bible to be forensically accurate and perfectly reliable in every possible way.

By virtue of their substance and form, physical objects require no faith whatsoever. They can be observed, examined, touched and even smelled. -- This is the very opposite of "faith."
Thomas was not commended or blessed because he had "seen" Jesus after the resurrection, but those who believe WITHOUT SEEING ARE! (John 20:29)

Christians who condemn the Shroud of Turin never come up with any ''correct, valid, well-founded, sound FACTS'' or evidence to prove the Shroud of Turin is not authentic.
They not rarely argue like this: Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus 26, Where God states " Ye shall make you no idols nor graven images". So why would God break his own laws? 

But what does the meaning of the word ''images" mean? Which means making idols with our hands. This was why God gave these commands because His people were making idols and images out of clay and then worshipping them as if they were a god.

And then they ignore the facts, there is not a single shred of evidence that the Shroud was ever made by human hands.

So the Shroud does not, in fact, break any laws of God. Unless we worship it. And no true born again believer worships anything but Jesus Christ Himself.

What about those Christians then that purchase DVD films with the ''images" of Jesus on them and watch Jesus films, with people portraying Jesus who is above.

Theses Christians who condemn the Shroud often argue that God would not break His own commands by making ''images" for people to bow down and worship. But these critics fail to understand that NO TRUE born again Christian bows down and worships anything. Except for Jesus Christ Himself.

We simply use the Shroud as an important witnessing tool. Because most of the human race believes the story of Jesus is a fairytale. Theses Christians who condemn the Shroud seem to be the same as most atheists who just refuse to believe the Shroud is authentic no matter how good or convincing the evidence is. There is to wonder what side these critics are on. When it comes to proving to the lost it is Jesus on the Shroud of Turin they seem to jump on the atheist's side and teach the many people like Doubting Thomas's The Shroud is a forgery.

Yet they believe Jesus was crucified and His burial cloths were lost or destroyed. The very fact the 2 cloths have survived for 2000 years can only prove one thing. God preserved them for today as a witnessing tool.

Peter Schumacher, the inventor of the NASA VP-8 Image Analyzer, describes the discovery of the 3 D image of Jesus Christ on the Shroud of Turin. He states: Modern science does not understand the process by which the image on the Shroud was formed and all duplication efforts have failed to duplicate all the peculiar properties of the Shroud of Turin image.

John 20:24  Thomas said:
Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

How interesting. Here we have a disciple of Jesus who followed Jesus, saw Jesus change water into wine, fed the 5000 with just a 5 loaves and 2 fish.
he watched Jesus raise the dead, heal the blind and crippled calmed the storm, cast out demons and heard Jesus tell hidden secrets in his parables only he could know and many many more great miracles that each of us would desire to see just one miracle.

Yet Thomas did not have any faith in the most important time in world history. Where Jesus was to become the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by His ultimate triumph and the Resurrection. Jesus made it clear, this was why He came into the world to be crucified and be raised from the dead in 3 days.

The greatest day ever, that changed the world forever in the whole of human history had come. The greatest day that the prophets so longed to see was for filled and Yet St Thomas became The famous Doubting Thomas who could not believe and had to see Jesus to believe.
St Thomas needed to see and touch the very holes from the nails in the hands of Jesus.
But that still wasn't enough for St Thomas to believe. He also made it clear. He demanded to see the spear wound of Jesus as well to believe.

After eight days Jesus returned and said to St Thomas: Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27.

So there we have it, friends. St Thomas clearly needed to see to believe. And Jesus did not condemn St Thomas for wanting to SEE to believe.

Yes we born again believers already have faith in Jesus, and blessed are they who have faith without seeing.

The author of the blog from which above information was copied from, promotes the claim Jesus was created. I disagree with this view but hold to the trinitarian doctrine.  
https://wwwrealdiscoveriesorg-simon.blogspot.com/2015/03/doubting-thomas-and-shroud-of-turin.html



Last edited by Admin on Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:25 am; edited 3 times in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

The shroud of turin

One common claim of atheists is that 'there is NO evidence of the historical Jesus'' Because ALL the Bible and ancient writings of Jesus could be written by anyone and were written by so many people, years after the events, which could easily be made up.

The shroud provides to the lost world the forensic facts and evidence of the horror of Jesus going to the cross. The Shroud bears the ultimate triumph of the Resurrection of Jesus (Yeshua) meaning Salvation. All this is recorded supernaturally on The Shroud of Turin, which proves the Holy Bible to be forensically accurate and perfectly reliable in every possible way.

By virtue of their substance and form, physical objects require no faith whatsoever. They can be observed, examined, touched and even smelled. -- This is the very opposite of "faith." Thomas was not commended or blessed because he had "seen" Jesus after the resurrection, but those who believe WITHOUT SEEING ARE! (John 20:29)

The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx ViadellaConciliazione
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4sj8hUVaY

The Shroud of Turin  is NOT A FORGERY FROM THE 14th century, as following amazing evidence will demonstrate. It is a length of linen cloth bearing the negative image of a man,  which based on overwhelming evidence points to be Jesus of Nazareth and the fabric is the burial shroud in which he was wrapped after the crucifixion.

The blood
The blood strains can only be seen with UV light. Why would an artist back then ever put blood there which would not be visible, and providing no advantage at all. But even more remarkable than that, the wide presence of creatinine particles bound to ferrihydrite particles is not a situation typical of the blood serum of a healthy human organism. Indeed, a high level of creatinine and ferritin is related to patients suffering of strong polytrauma like torture. Hence, the presence of these biological nanoparticles found during our experiments points a violent death for the man wrapped in the Turin shroud.” What appears to be blood on the Shroud has passed 13 tests proving that it is real human blood.  The presence of "X" and "Y" chromosomes indicates that the blood is from a male.  The blood type is AB.  

When a person is cruelly tortured, the blood undergoes a terrible hemolysis, when the hemoglobin literally ‘breaks up’. In thirty seconds, the reaction reaches the liver, which doesn’t have time to deal with it, and discharges a volume of bilirubin into the veins. Alan Adler has discovered a very high quantity of this substance in the blood on the Shroud. It is this substance that, when mixed with methemoglobin of a certain type, produces that vivid red color. The color of the blood belonging to the ‘Man of the Shroud’ is chemical proof that, before dying, he suffered terrible torture.

Pollen from Jerusalem
Pollen is on the Shroud that is unique to the area around Jerusalem.  Max Frei, a botanist by training, identified spores from forty-nine plants in samples taken from the Shroud.  Thirty-three of them came from plants that grow only in Palestine, the southern steppes of Turkey, and the area of Istanbul: Since the Shroud has never left France since its appearance in Lirey in 1357, this data suggests that the Shroud was exposed to the open air in Palestine and Turkey at some point prior to 1357.  Moreover: ‘Professor Danin has identified the pollen particles.. of three plants that are found only in Jerusalem. One of them, gondelia turnaforte, was present in extraordinary numbers. It’s the same plant that scholars believe may have been used as the crown of thorns worn on Jesus’ head.’

Limestone from Jerusalem
In 1982, Dr. Joseph Kohlbeck, Scientist, with assistance from Dr. Richard Levi-Setti , compared dirt from the Shroud to travertine aragonite limestone found in ancient Jewish tombs in Israel. The particles of dirt on the Shroud matched limestone found in the tombs.’

Image on the outermost layer
The image resides on the outermost layer of the linen fibers and the image goes just two or three fibers deep into the thread. The superficial image then disappears if a colored thread goes under another thread. The polysaccharide cover is approximately 0.2 thousandths of a millimeter (about 0.000008 inches) the inner side is not.

The image is a photonegative
Secondo Pia's first photograph in 1898 showed that the image on the cloth is a negative. The front and back (dorsal) images of the crucified man are negative images and contain 3D or topographical information content related to the distance of the cloth from the body.

Correct anatomy of the nails
The place where the nails are in the hands is anatomically correct. The image is NOT  there are no pigments whatsoever on the Shroud. If it were a forgery, with high certainty, it would have been painted. Who of the lay population would have perceived it ?

Two nails are through one foot, but only one of the nails is through the other foot.  This allows one foot to rotate, so that the victim can push up and down on the cross in order to breath during crucifixion.  If the victim of crucifixion is not pushing up and down, then it is clear that he is dead.  The soldiers had no doubt that Jesus was dead. All paintings of the Middle Ages showed the nails through the center of the palms, but nails through the palms do not support sufficient weight since there is no bone structure above this location.  Archeology has confirmed that during crucifixion, the nails were driven through the wrists.  The Shroud shows the correct nail locations - through the wrist instead of through the palm.

Age of the shroud
In 2013, a research team from the University of Padua conducted three tests on tiny fibers extracted from the shroud during earlier carbon-14 dating tests conducted in 1988 The first two tests used infrared light and Raman spectroscopy, respectively, while the third employed a test analyzing different mechanical parameters relating to voltage. The results date the cloth to between 300 B.C. and 400 A.D.. Fanti said that researchers also found trace elements of soil "compatible with the soil of Jerusalem." "For me the [Shroud] comes from God because there are hundreds of clues in favor to the authenticity," he wrote, adding that there also "no sure proofs. The 1988 carbon C14 results may have been contaminated by fibers used to repair the cloth during the Middle Ages.

Linen is from the first century
Stitching used to sew on the 3-inch wide side piece onto the main Shroud is nearly identical to that found at Masada which was destroyed in 73-74 AD. The size of the Shroud being very close to 2 by 8 cubits - the ancient unit of measurement

Scourge marks from the Roman flagrum
The Shroud shows 100 to 120 scourge marks from two Roman flagrum, one striking from each side, with dumbbell shaped weights on the ends of the straps.  The blood marks from these wounds show blood serum rings (visible only under UV) around the dried blood exudate. There are abrasions on both shoulders evidently caused by the victim carrying a heavy rough object.

Side wound from Roman Spear
The side of the front image on the Shroud shows a 2 inch wide elliptical wound - the size of a typical Roman spear. The blood running down his arms is at the correct angles for a crucifixion victim.  Two angles for the blood flow can be seen on his arms.  These two angles are consistent with the crucifixion victim shifting between two positions while on the cross in order to breath.

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Was Jesus wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, or, as John reports, tied by strips of linen in company with the spices?

Question: Do the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) contradict the Gospel of John in regards of the burial cloths of Jesus? Was Jesus wrapped (ἐντυλίσσω—wrap) it in a clean linen cloth, or, as John reports,     tied it (δέω—tie, bind; wrap??) by strips of linen (ὀθόνιοις—dat. of means) in company with the spices?

Answer: Perhaps the answer or solution to this apparent problem is that John, an eyewitness of these events, was not in fact speaking to exactly the same part of the burial activity as the other three writers who received their information second hand, but to a quite different aspect of the process of which he personally was aware and which is not that well known today. Taken literally, John appears to be saying that the body of Jesus was “tied with linen strips” (ὀθόνια) in connection with his burial. If we then use his account of the burial of Lazarus some chapters earlier to help with the interpretation of just what is meant (“the feet and hands bound with cords,” John 11:44) we would have to say this tying of Jesus also probably was applied to the hands and feet, not to the whole body. The Lazarus account goes on to say, “λύσατε—loose/untie him” (KJV); (not: “take off the grave clothes” - NIV) and let him depart.” Then the picture becomes clear and the items mentioned later in the gospels that were found by the first visitors to the grave, the linen strips and the folded cloth, can be put into better perspective. The gospels are not in conflict—no Scripture is. Rather, it is much more likely that our understanding of Jewish burial practices simply has not been that clear now after a span of almost 2000 years. And it may have been a preconception or simple misconception on the part of both early and later translators that attempted to force from John’s words a parallel meaning to the first three gospels in regard to the wrapping of Jesus, when in fact he was speaking to something quite different—a tying of the limbs to hold them in position at the time of burial due to rigor mortis rather than a separate wrapping or covering of the entire body with strips.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/the-shroud-of-turin/3199-some-ruminations-on-the-shroud-of-turin


The Shroud of Turin - The Evidence of Authenticity See after 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5NEY0NkPrw



Last edited by Otangelo on Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:53 am; edited 2 times in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

31The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Empty Is the Shroud of Turin authentic? Sun May 10, 2020 9:40 am

Otangelo


Admin

A response to:  Is the Shroud of Turin authentic?

Matthew Cserhati, Robert Carter
https://creation.com/turin-shroud?fbclid=IwAR0maqWoRPKObevu93eiDgSKEyX4qLAQfrshTTO9lkG6t67G9vPlox_VnkY

Claim:  Jesus was wrapped up in multiple burial clothes, not just one.
Reply: Do the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) contradict the Gospel of John in regards of the burial cloths of Jesus? Was Jesus wrapped (ἐντυλίσσω—wrap) it in a clean linen cloth, or, as John reports, tied it (δέω—tie, bind; wrap??) by strips of linen (ὀθόνιοις—dat. of means) in company with the spices?

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/the-shroud-of-turin/3199-some-ruminations-on-the-shroud-of-turin

Perhaps the answer or solution to this apparent problem is that John, an eyewitness of these events, was not in fact speaking to exactly the same part of the burial activity as the other three writers who received their information second hand, but to a quite different aspect of the process of which he personally was aware and which is not that well known today. Taken literally, John appears to be saying that the body of Jesus was “tied with linen strips” (ὀθόνια) in connection with his burial. If we then use his account of the burial of Lazarus some chapters earlier to help with the interpretation of just what is meant (“the feet and hands bound with cords,” John 11:44) we would have to say this tying of Jesus also probably was applied to the hands and feet, not to the whole body. The Lazarus account goes on to say, “λύσατε—loose/untie him” (KJV); (not: “take off the grave clothes” - NIV) and let him depart.” Then the picture becomes clear and the items mentioned later in the gospels that were found by the first visitors to the grave, the linen strips and the folded cloth, can be put into better perspective. The gospels are not in conflict—no Scripture is. Rather, it is much more likely that our understanding of Jewish burial practices simply has not been that clear now after a span of almost 2000 years. And it may have been a preconception or simple misconception on the part of both early and later translators that attempted to force from John’s words a parallel meaning to the first three gospels in regard to the wrapping of Jesus, when in fact he was speaking to something quite different—a tying of the limbs to hold them in position at the time of burial due to rigor mortis rather than a separate wrapping or covering of the entire body with strips.

Claim: A separate head cloth was used, which the Lord took off after He arose from the dead.
Reply: THE SUDARIUM CHRISTI - THE FACE CLOTH OF CHRIST
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7145
In the Cathedral of Oviedo in northern Spain is a linen cloth called the Sudarium Christi, or the Face Cloth of Christ.  It is often referred to as the Cloth of Oviedo.  The Sudarium Christi is a poor-quality linen cloth, like a handkerchief, measuring 33 by 21 inches.  Unlike the Shroud of Turin, it does not have an image.  However, it does have bloodstains and serum stains from pulmonary edema fluid which match the blood and serum patterns and blood type (AB) of the Shroud of Turin.

Claim:The hair on the man in the Shroud hangs downward and his beard is also intact, both of which contradict Scripture.
Reply: Did Jesus brake the law of the OT by wearing long hair ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7135
Without a proper understanding of what the rules were regarding hair, you will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion concerning the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin.   In 1 Corinthians 11:14, the Apostle Paul declares that long hair is a disgrace to men, yet the man of the Shroud apparently has shoulder-length hair.  What constitutes "long hair" depends on one's own culture's subjective view; Paul himself would probably have had shoulder-length hair, as that was the norm for Jewish men of his day; and what Paul was speaking about is "men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women"   Our concept of what Paul meant by `long hair' is usually affected by our own views of what constitutes long hair. While Paul was speaking of effeminate men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women, Paul himself would probably have worn shoulder-length hair in keeping with the hairstyle of the other orthodox Jews of his day.  As a matter of fact, the traditional style for an orthodox Jewish man of two thousand years ago is much the same for him today: a ponytail of hair and sidelocks-precisely what we see on the Shroud."  1 Corinthians points out that, based on the original Greek, what Paul was talking about was not "hair as such" but "hairdo":

"[1 Cor] 14-15 ... Vs. 4 reads: having his head covered, lit. from the head; vs. 6 distinguishes between a not covering of the head and a cutting short of the hair, apparently assuming that even if the head is not covered the hair may still be long. The solution of this question must be sought in the two different words for hair which the Greek uses. [triches and kome] The first one means hair as such; the second, which is used here, means the hairdo, hair that is neatly held by means of ribbon or lace. That also fits the context which shows that the Corinthian women did not cut their hair short (vs. 6), but that they took it down in ecstasy."  This is confirmed by the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, which shows that the words translated "a man wears long hair" (lit. "he wears his hair long") is one Greek word κομη (kome) (Marshall, A., 1966, "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament," p.686).

Claim: There is no trace of the large quantity of sticky spices with which Jesus is known to have been buried.
Reply:
https://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm
All of the Gospels convey the information that Christ's burial was hasty and incomplete because of the approaching Sabbath. In the earlier accounts of Mark and Luke, the women are said to be returning on Sunday morning to anoint the body with ointments prepared over the Sabbath, when washing a body for burial was effectively forbidden by the ritual prescription of moving or lifting a corpse.

Claim: The height of the man in the Shroud does not match that of a first century Jewish man. The arms seem to be distorted and disproportional. And the argument that the head is leaning forward is hard to believe.

Reply:  This is a weak argument. Jesus could have been a bit taller than average. There is nothing impossible in this regard. 

Claim: While the 14C dates of the Shroud may be contestable, there is still no positive evidence that the Shroud dates to the first century. Palynology has not helped to clarify anything.

Reply:  https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7139
There is plenty of new evidence that permits a rational conclusion, that the Shroud is from the 1st. Century. 

Claim: The historical record is incomplete. At best, there is a 500-year gap between the Crucifixion and the first attestation to the Image of Edessa.

Reply:
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7144

In the beginning of the history of the Church, the Jesus burial sheet was probably kept hidden for several reasons: first of all, it was a very precious “memory,” having enveloped He who sacrificed Himself on the Cross. Furthermore, Christians feared that someone could seize and destroy it: the Hebrews, in compliance with Mosaic Law, considered everything that had touched a corpse as impure; and not Hebrews judged the punishment of crucifixion as ignominious. The reasons why the protectors of the Shroud wanted to keep it hidden are then clear. Nino, who evangelized Georgia under the Constantine empire (306–337), inquired after the Shroud to Niafori, his master, and to other Christian scholars of Jerusalem. He learned that the burial cloths had been for some time in possession of Pilate’s wife, and after, they were handed by Luke the evangelist, who stored them in a safe place known only to himself. In the fourth century, in Edessa there was the certainty that the city owned an image of Christ, created by God and not produced by the hands of man. It is said that when the image was shown it was folded in eight layers: the result of creasing the Shroud in this way gives a long rectangle with the head in its center, without a neck. This is exactly the same image shown in the copies of the Image of Edessa.



Last edited by Otangelo on Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Is the Shroud of Turin the burial cloth of Jesus? With Barrie Schwortz, member of the STURP team, Friday, 22/08 9 PM ( GMT -3 )

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHHmiFbsxbw

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin

One common claim of atheists is that 'there is NO evidence of the historical Jesus'' Because ALL the Bible and ancient writings of Jesus could be written by anyone and were written by so many people, years after the events, which could easily be made up.

The Gospels of Matthew,[27:59–60] Mark,[15:46] and Luke[23:53] state that Joseph of Arimathea wrapped the body of Jesus in a piece of linen cloth and placed it in a new tomb. The Gospel of John[19:38–40] refers to strips of linen used by Joseph of Arimathea and states that Apostle Peter found multiple pieces of burial cloth after the tomb was found open, strips of linen cloth for the body and a separate cloth for the head.[20:6–7]

The shroud provides to the lost world the forensic facts and evidence of the horror of Jesus going to the cross. The Shroud bears the ultimate triumph of the Resurrection of Jesus (Yeshua) meaning Salvation. All this is recorded supernaturally on The Shroud of Turin, which proves the Holy Bible to be forensically accurate and perfectly reliable in every possible way.

By virtue of their substance and form, physical objects require no faith whatsoever. They can be observed, examined, touched, and even smelled. -- This is the very opposite of "faith." Thomas was not commended or blessed because he had "seen" Jesus after the resurrection, but those who believe WITHOUT SEEING ARE! (John 20:29)

The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx ViadellaConciliazione
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4sj8hUVaY

The Shroud of Turin is NOT A FORGERY FROM THE 14th century, as following amazing evidence will demonstrate. It is a length of linen cloth bearing the negative image of a man, which based on overwhelming evidence points to be Jesus of Nazareth and the fabric is the burial shroud in which he was wrapped after the crucifixion.

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Does the long hair of the man on the Shroud of Turin contradict 1 Corinthians 11:14?

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2014/12/does-long-hair-of-man-on-shroud-of.html

1) what constitutes "long hair" depends on one's own culture's subjective view; 2) Paul himself would probably have had shoulder-length hair, as that was the norm for Jewish men of his day; and 3) What Paul was speaking about is "men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women" (my emphasis):

"A. ... though the question of long hair seems overly naive, it is frequently asked. Our concept of what Paul meant by `long hair' is usually affected by our own views of what constitutes long hair. While Paul was speaking of effeminate men who wore their hair in styles peculiar to women, Paul himself would probably have worn shoulder-length hair in keeping with the hairstyle of the other orthodox Jews of his day. 1 As a matter of fact, the traditional style for an orthodox Jewish man of two thousand years ago is much the same for him today: a ponytail of hair and sidelocks-precisely what we see on the Shroud." (Stevenson & Habermas, 1990, pp.149-151).

In support of this, one of my commentaries on 1 Corinthians points out that, based on the original Greek, what Paul was talking about was not "hair as such" but "hairdo":

"[1 Cor] 14-15 ... Vs. 4 reads: having his head covered, lit. from the head; vs. 6 distinguishes between a not covering of the head and a cutting short of the hair, apparently assuming that even if the head is not covered the hair may still be long. The solution of this question must be sought in the two different words for hair which the Greek uses. [triches and kome] The first one means hair as such; the second, which is used here, means the hairdo, hair that is neatly held by means of ribbon or lace. That also fits the context which shows that the Corinthian women did not cut their hair short (vs. 6), but that they took it down in ecstasy." (Grosheide, F.W., 1954, "Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians," p.260. My transliteration).

What Paul was really concerned about was not the lengths of men's and women's hair, but "that man is to be distinguished from woman":

"[1Cor] 13-15 The final point in the passage is that man is to be distinguished from woman. Thus the Corinthians are to see that the woman should not pray with her head uncovered as the man does. They are reminded that in ordinary life man with his short hair is distinguished from woman with her long hair. If a man has long hair like a woman's, he is disgraced, but with long hair the woman gains glory in her position of subjection to man. Also long hair is actually given to her as a natural veil." (Mare, W.H., "1 Corinthians," in Gaebelein, F.E., ed., 1978, "The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 10 - Romans - Galatians," p.256).

The NIV Study Bible's comment on this passage puts it succinctly, that, "Paul's point is that men should look like men in that culture, and women should look like women in that culture":

"[1Cor] 11:14 Here the word nature probably means "your natural sense of what is appropriate for men and women": it would be a disgrace for a man to look like a woman because of his hair style. Although the norms of appropriate hair style (and dress) may vary from culture to culture, Paul's point is that men should look like men in that culture, and women should look like women in that culture, rather than seeking to deny or disparage the God-given differences between the sexes." (Barker, K., et al., eds., 1985, "The NIV Study Bible," p.2207. Italics original).

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Debunking The Shroud: Made by Human Hands
https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm

New study on Holy Shroud confirms: “It’s the blood of a tortured man.”
https://aleteia.org/2018/08/15/new-study-on-holy-shroud-confirms-its-the-blood-of-a-tortured-man/



Last edited by Otangelo on Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Objection: The “miraculous” things often claim credibility due to lack of natural explanation, but my conclusion is based on what I know of God’s person and divine nature from His word.
#1. God forbids man to fashion or revere any image to give the flesh a substitute for faith.
Exo 20:4 KJV Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
He defines faith in Heb 11:1 “Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
Would Jehovah provide a “visual aid” which defies His own commandment, and provides the doubting flesh with evidence? Wouldn’t this give an unrighteous advantage to those privileged to view this evidence, over the vast majority of men through out history, under requirement to believe and yet having had no opportunity to take this “evidence” into account?
#2. Scientists and intellectuals were quite encouraged to see that according to this relic, Jesus was crucified with nails through His wrists, which appealed to their reasonable minds and made the crucifixion “story” more historically feasible.
However, in Luke 24:39, the Lord instructed the disciples to “behold my hands and my feet” to see the wounds from the nails. In the original language the word used for “hands” is literally χεῖράς χείρ “instruments for grasping”
However illogical, His hands were nailed to the wood, and perhaps, as some have considered, his arms were supported by binding of some kind, to support the weight of His body. But we don’t KNOW, because God did not grant us details to satisfy our intellectual demands.
To summarize I would just remind all our seeking friends, that God is absolutely sovereign in His economy (Economy is the Greek word "oikonomia", in 1 Timothy 1:4, which refers to a household management, the household administration, the arrangement for distribution, or dispensation.)
God dispenses Himself as the Spirit, into man’s spirit, via the copper wire of faith. This economy makes no use of images of any kind, even those which SEEM to produce belief in doubters. We are warned against being distracted from the narrow way that leads to Life, into the realm of the natural mind.
1Ti 1:4 Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God’s economy, which is in FAITH. (The substantiation of things UNSEEN)

Reply:  External information is legitimate when considering the authenticity of God. Romans 1:20.
They are legitimate when considering the historicity of biblical events.
Why would we not consider the wonder of the cloth that covered Jesus when he resurrected? The history of it fits, the pollen and flowers fit. The image fits.
Could it be abused as a graven image, for sure. Is it graven?
It is a radiograph of a resurrection.
The bible is still far and above primary. His word changes people.

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

It’s often assumed that carbon dating can be trusted to give accurate results but archaeologists, who know quite a bit about how to date ancient objects, have a different view.  According to archaeologist Eugenia Nitowski,  
“In archaeology, if there are ten lines of evidence, carbon dating being one of them, and it conflicts with the other nine, there is little hesitation to throw out the carbon date as inaccurate due to unforeseen contamination.”
This video outlines just some of the scientific evidence that contradicts the radiocarbon dating result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJymwctqo-A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBDuKZSgDSI


The Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin in 1988: Prelude and Aftermath -an English-language Bibliography
https://www.academia.edu/47752372/The_Radiocarbon_Dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin_in_1988_Prelude_and_Aftermath_an_English_language_Bibliography?fbclid=IwAR3QrXQFJ504bpRLz83ePSQpkku4gPEem6VMGQUp_dfNtRviANuMCfPMZW4



Last edited by Otangelo on Sun May 02, 2021 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

The weight of scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the case for authenticity but science can not prove a statement 100% in the positive. It is a straw man argument to say you can prove the shroud is authentic, Just as an atheist cannot prove it is not authentic. Probability calculus has concluded that from seven independent characteristics shared by Jesus of Nazareth and the man of the shroud , The The shroud is Jesus of Nazareth with odds of 20,000,000,000 to 1. Or another way is the man of the shroud is another crucified man with out of 1 and 20 billion.

Whoever is debating was not for the strawman arguments and stick to the science data, none of which refutes the case for authenticity but in itself cannot prove it. The STURP team concluded that it is not man-made, not painted not a scotch not a photograph and gave many reasons including the fact that the blood is from a real talk to victim and includes pre-and post mortem blood with some only visible under UV light which was not available to a middle ages for you. The shred cannot be replicated today even with modern exomar Laser’s. The body image is a noncontact image it has 3D characteristics which mean the light or heat or radiation came from the body creating body cloth density based on distance.
Historical discussions can be useful to confirm that radiocarbon dating results are likely incorrect but the science of the body image and blood are the strongest arguments for authenticity.

Walter macron found 1.of paint and claimed the whole image was made by an artist and this was quickly dispelled by microscopy as McCrone only used a standard microscope and not chemistry. The burden of proof definitely lies with the atheist who hang onto data which goes against the overwhelming evidence in the other direction.

Whoever is debating should confirm the two different examples of authenticity, one is that the shroud is an ancient authentic burial cloth which contained a real torture dead body. This has been confirmed already by science. The second claim of authenticity may include the fact that the man of the shroud is Jesus of Nazareth and forensics science and mathematical probability which are compatible with scripture are the best evidence for this although it can’t be approved 100% it has extremely high odds.

It would be awesome if the atheist was open to discussing the message of the shroud which is the more important information and remind them that whether the child is authentic or not the message is timeless and shows the sacrifice of our Messiah to save us from our sins, And shows the promise of our resurrection through him.

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Linen threads within the Shroud of Turin are consistent with this ancient spinning and weaving method rather than medieval practices where bleaching was done after weaving the cloth was finished. Additionally, chemical tests on linen fiber growth nodes suggest the cloth is very old and predates the medieval period.
https://reasons.org/the-shroud-of-turin-part-2-an-examination-of-the-cloth/


Fringe theories about the Shroud of Turin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_theories_about_the_Shroud_of_Turin

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin

Russ Breault: The Shroud - The Receipt Of The Resurrection?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R4tI30Z5sI&fbclid=IwAR1lOWvYoceGpecpiFcz6-uT6jGwvtzAw_xCldXSqQbinaGGwBpcWfBBvg4

BOUGHT, PURCHASED, RANSOMED & REDEEMED
For you were BOUGHT at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 6:20
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He PURCHASED with His own blood.
Acts 20:28
"...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a RANSOM for many."
Matthew 20:28
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a RANSOM for all, to be testified in due time,
1 Timothy 2:5-6
knowing that you were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1 Peter 1:18-19
These are all terms used to describe a financial transaction.
When you complete a transaction at the store the cashier gives you a piece of paper that describes the details of the price paid
It's called a 'receipt'.

Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one gets to the Father but through Me.” No other has made such claims, not even the well known religious leaders such as Confucius, Buddha or Mohammed. Jesus is the only option through which one might receive forgiveness and eternal life. Jesus alone is our ticket to Heaven. Some call this narrow-mindedness, but who’d buy a ticket to Tokyo and then argue later if the plane indeed goes to Tokyo and not Beijing? Do we see a psychiatrist when we have a toothache? So with something as important as our eternal destiny, why be casual? How can all ways be true ways, when Jesus said no one gets ’s to the Father but through Him? Someone or someones must by lying. Too many say Jesus was just a mere prophet when Jesus Himself accepted worship while He was on earth. Jesus was either a blasphemer or He was and still is God! There is no a “good prophet but not God” option.

How you can get Saved!
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2501-how-you-can-get-saved

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

David Kyle Johnson: Let's Let Go of The Shroud (of Turin) Apr 10, 2020
Claim: The claims that the Shroud contains pollen from Palestine, not just Italy (where the known history of the Shroud places it), are suspect to doubt as well. They were based off of one sample, not repeated or verified, and were made by Max Frei-Sulzer--a con artist who is known to have lied to “prove” the authenticity of the “Hitler Diaries”
https://www.gcrr.org/post/let-go-of-the-shroud-of-turin

JOE NICKELL:  Scandals and Follies of the 'Holy Shroud September/October 2001
 In an article in SKEPTICAL INQUIRER Schafersman (1982) called for an investigation of Frei's work. When Frei's tape samples became available after his death, McCrone was asked to authenticate them. This he was readily able to do, he told me, "since it was easy to find red ocher on linen fibers much the same as I had seen them on my samples." But there were few pollen other than on a single tape which bore "dozens" in one small area. This indicated that the tape had subsequently been "contaminated," probably deliberately.
https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2001/09/22164802/p17.pdf

Reply: William K. Stevens: Tests Trace Turin Shroud to Jerusalem Before A.D. 700  Aug. 3, 1999
Avinoam Danin, a botantist at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said at a news conference at the 16th International Botanical Congress here that flowers and other plant parts apparently were placed on the shroud, leaving pollen grains and imprints. Analysis of the grains and the images, he said, identified them as coming from species that could be found only in the months of March and April in the Jerusalem region.

The pollen of one plant, a thistle called Gundelia tournefortii, was especially abundant on the cloth, and an image of the plant was identified near the image of the man's shoulder. Some scientists say this may have been the species from which Jesus's crown of thorns was plaited.

Two pollen grains of this species were also found on another ancient fabric, called the Sudarium of Oviedo, which many believe to be the burial face cloth of Jesus. A first-century origin for the face cloth has been documented, the scientists here said, and it has been in the Cathedral of Oviedo in Spain since the eighth century. The shroud has been kept in Turin, Italy, since 1578.

Both the Sudarium and the shroud appear to carry type AB blood stains, and the stains are in a similar pattern, Dr. Danin said. ''There is no way that similar patterns of blood stains, probably of the identical blood type, with the same type of pollen grains, could not be synchronic, covering the same body,'' he said. ''The pollen association and the similarities in the blood stains in the two cloths provide clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century.'' He did not offer a more specific date.
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/03/world/tests-trace-turin-shroud-to-jerusalem-before-ad-700.html

ScienceDaily Botanical Evidence Indicates "Shroud Of Turin" Originated In Jerusalem Area Before 8th Century August 3, 1999
An analysis of pollen grains and plant images places the origin of the "Shroud of Turin," thought by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth, in Jerusalem before the 8th Century. 

Botanist Avinoam Danin of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem determined the origin of the Shroud based on a comprehensive analysis of pollen taken from the Shroud and plant images associated with the Shroud. The review of plant and pollen evidence is being published by the Missouri Botanical Garden Press as Flora of the Shroud of Turin by Danin, Alan Whanger, Mary Whanger , and Uri Baruch. 

Avinoam Danin BOTANY OF THE SHROUD The Story of Floral Images on the Shroud of Turin 2010

“the area where the assemblage of the three indicator plants could be freshly collected and placed on the Shroud near the man’s body is the area of Jerusalem to Hebron”. As for flowering seasons, he deduces that “March-April is the time of year when the whole assemblage of some 10 of the plants identified on the Shroud is in bloom”.
https://www.nhbs.com/botany-of-the-shroud-book

Long answer:
David Kyle Johnson: Let's Let Go of The Shroud (of Turin) Apr 10, 2020
Claim: The claims that the Shroud contains pollen from Palestine, not just Italy (where the known history of the Shroud places it), are suspect to doubt as well. They were based off of one sample, not repeated or verified, and were made by Max Frei-Sulzer--a con artist who is known to have lied to “prove” the authenticity of the “Hitler Diaries”

JOE NICKELL:  Scandals and Follies of the 'Holy Shroud September/October 2001
Pollen Fraud? McCrone would later refute another bit of pro-shroud propaganda: the claim of a Swiss criminologist, Max Frei-Sulzer, that he had found certain pollen grains on the cloth that "could only have originated from plants that grew exclusively in Palestine at the time of Christ." Earlier Frei had also claimed to have discovered pollens on the cloth that were characteristic of Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) and the area of ancient Edessa—seeming to confirm a "theory" of the shroud's missing early history. Wilson (1979) conjectured that the shroud was the fourth-century Image of Edessa, a legendary "miraculous" imprint of Jesus' face made as a gift to King Abgar. Wilson's notion was that the shroud had been folded so that only the face showed and that it had thus been disguised for centuries. Actually, had the cloth been kept in a frame for such a long period there would have been an age-yellowed, rectangular area around the face. Nevertheless Frei's alleged pollen evidence gave new support to Wilson's ideas. I say alleged evidence since Frei had credibility problems. Before his death in 1983 his reputation suffered when, representing himself as a handwriting expert, he pronounced the infamous "Hitler diaries" genuine; they were soon exposed as forgeries. In the meantime, an even more serious question had arisen about Frei's pollen evidence. Whereas he reported finding numerous types of pollen from Palestine and other areas, STURP's tape-lifted samples, taken at the same time, showed few pollen. Micropaleontologist Steven D. Schafersman was probably the first to publicly suggest Frei might be guilty of deception. He explained how unlikely it was, given the evidence of the shroud's exclusively European history, that thirty-three different Middle Eastern pollens could have reached the cloth, particularly only pollen from Palestine, Istanbul, and the Anatolian steppe. With such selectivity, Schafersman stated, ".these would be miraculous winds indeed." In an article in SKEPTICAL INQUIRER Schafersman (1982) called for an investigation of Frei's work. When Frei's tape samples became available after his death, McCrone was asked to authenticate them. This he was readily able to do, he told me, "since it was easy to find red ocher on linen fibers much the same as I had seen them on my samples." But there were few pollen other than on a single tape which bore "dozens" in one small area. This indicated that the tape had subsequently been "contaminated," probably deliberately, McCrone concluded, by having been pulled back and the pollen surreptitiously introduced. McCrone added (1993):
One further point with respect to Max which I haven't mentioned anywhere, anytime to anybody is based on a statement made by his counterpart in Basel as head of the Police Crime Laboratory there that Max had been several times found guilty and was censured by the Police hierarchy in Switzerland for. shall we say, overenthusiastic interpretation of his evidence? His Basel counterpart had been on the investigating committee and expressed surprise in a letter to me that Max was able to continue in his position as Head of the Police Crime Lab in Zurich. McCrone would later refute another bit of pro-shroud propaganda: the claim of a Swiss criminologist. Max Frei-Sulzer, that he had found certain pollen grains on the cloth that "could only have originated from plants that grew exclusively in Palestine at the time of Christ." SKEPTICAL INQUIRER September/October 2001 1 » 
https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2001/09/22164802/p17.pdf

Reply: William K. Stevens: Tests Trace Turin Shroud to Jerusalem Before A.D. 700  Aug. 3, 1999
Avinoam Danin, a botantist at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said at a news conference at the 16th International Botanical Congress here that flowers and other plant parts apparently were placed on the shroud, leaving pollen grains and imprints. Analysis of the grains and the images, he said, identified them as coming from species that could be found only in the months of March and April in the Jerusalem region.

The pollen of one plant, a thistle called Gundelia tournefortii, was especially abundant on the cloth, and an image of the plant was identified near the image of the man's shoulder. Some scientists say this may have been the species from which Jesus's crown of thorns was plaited.

Two pollen grains of this species were also found on another ancient fabric, called the Sudarium of Oviedo, which many believe to be the burial face cloth of Jesus. A first-century origin for the face cloth has been documented, the scientists here said, and it has been in the Cathedral of Oviedo in Spain since the eighth century. The shroud has been kept in Turin, Italy, since 1578.

Both the Sudarium and the shroud appear to carry type AB blood stains, and the stains are in a similar pattern, Dr. Danin said. ''There is no way that similar patterns of blood stains, probably of the identical blood type, with the same type of pollen grains, could not be synchronic, covering the same body,'' he said. ''The pollen association and the similarities in the blood stains in the two cloths provide clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century.'' He did not offer a more specific date.
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/03/world/tests-trace-turin-shroud-to-jerusalem-before-ad-700.html

ScienceDaily Botanical Evidence Indicates "Shroud Of Turin" Originated In Jerusalem Area Before 8th Century August 3, 1999
An analysis of pollen grains and plant images places the origin of the "Shroud of Turin," thought by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth, in Jerusalem before the 8th Century. 

Botanist Avinoam Danin of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem determined the origin of the Shroud based on a comprehensive analysis of pollen taken from the Shroud and plant images associated with the Shroud. The review of plant and pollen evidence is being published by the Missouri Botanical Garden Press as Flora of the Shroud of Turin by Danin, Alan Whanger, Mary Whanger , and Uri Baruch. 

Avinoam Danin BOTANY OF THE SHROUD The Story of Floral Images on the Shroud of Turin 2010

“the area where the assemblage of the three indicator plants could be freshly collected and placed on the Shroud near the man’s body is the area of Jerusalem to Hebron”. As for flowering seasons, he deduces that “March-April is the time of year when the whole assemblage of some 10 of the plants identified on the Shroud is in bloom”.

In 1973, the Church authorities in Turin asked the Swiss forensic expert Dr. Max Frei to evaluate some photographs of the Shroud. His observations of a few pollen grains on the Shroud led him to apply his forensic methods. He placed a sticky tape on the linen and pressed it with his thumb, and then immediately attached the sample to a microscope glass slide and sealed it (as it remains at present). When he examined the slides, using a light microscope, he saw many pollen grains that he could not identify from his Central European experience. Knowing the history of the Shroud, he made several trips to Israel and Turkey and sampled as many plants as he could. He then compared the control pollen grains with those from the Shroud and named the unknown pollen grains accordingly. His publications drew much attention among sindonologists. During the intensive investigations of the Shroud in 1978 by STURP, he sampled again, using the same method. STURP researchers wanted to do a more controlled investigation and developed a special tool for applying equal pressure over a well-determined area and obtained only a few pollen grains. However, Dr. Frei's "thumb" method yielded several hundred pollen grains. Unfortunately he died before he could study his 1978 collection. After his death, Mr. Paul Maloney (Projects Director for ASSIST) received a few slides on loan. He wanted very much to get the pollen grains named. Unfortunately, he is not a palynologist, and hence his reports cannot provide useful information on the identity of the plants which provided the pollen grains. The present custodians of most of the scientific material of Dr. M. Frei are the founders of CSST, Dr. Alan and Mary Whanger. After the beginning of our cooperation in 1995, we managed to bring Dr. Uri Baruch, an Israeli Palynologist, to study Frei's sticky-tape slides. He used the optical equipment belonging to CSST and available at the Whangers' (Fig. 68). The results were included in our book "Flora of the Shroud of Turin" (1999). Continuing research on the collection of the sticky tape samples taken from the Shroud in 1973 and 1978 by Dr. Max Frei was facilitated by the recent availability of new advanced microscope equipment. The work was done by reviewing several, but not all, of the Frei sticky-tape slides at the end of June 2001, by palynologist Prof. Dr. Thomas Litt at his laboratory at the Institute of Paleontology of the University of Bonn, Germany. Prof. Litt had earlier asked my help in collecting plant samples in Israel, and during our mutual excursion I suggested using his expertise and equipment to review Frei's samples. In his report to CSST, Prof. Litt
wrote: "The images produced by light microscopy (interference contrast) and by confocal laser-scanning microscopy show clearly that waxes are preserved and cover the structure and sculpture of the pollen grains. This is the reason why I cannot make a precise identification of the pollen at the genus level, even less at the species level. However, with a high probability, I can exclude that the pollen I have seen on the sticky tapes belong to Gundelia." In previous examinations of the tapes by light microscopy, it was felt that the most common type of pollen grain on the Shroud could be identified as Gundelia tournefortii, a thorn from the sunflower family (Asteraceae, Compositae). The study with the more advanced microscopy was limited by time to a re-examination of most of this single type previously identified as Gundelia. Prof. Dr Litt should publish further information regarding his findings.
https://www.nhbs.com/botany-of-the-shroud-book


The analysis positively identifies a high density of pollen of the thistle Gundelia tournefortii which has bloomed in Israel between March and May for millennia. An image of the plant can be seen near the image of the man's shoulder. It has been hypothesized by the Whangers, who have researched the Shroud for decades, that this is the plant used for the "crown of thorns" on Jesus' head.
Two pollen grains of this species were also found on the Sudarium of Oviedo, widely accepted as the burial face cloth of Jesus. The location of the Sudarium has been documented from the 1st Century and it has resided in the Cathedral of Oviedo in Spain since the 8th Century. Both cloths also carry type AB blood stains, although some argue that ancient blood types are hard to interpret. What is clear is that the blood stains on both cloths are in a similar pattern.
"There is no way that similar patterns of blood stains, probably of the identical blood type, with the same type of pollen grains, could not be synchronic - covering the same body," Danin stated. "The pollen association and the similarities in the blood stains in the two cloths provide clear evidence that the Shroud originated before the 8th Century."
Danin stated that this botanical research disputes the validity of the claim that the Shroud was from Europe during the Middle Ages, as many researchers had concluded in 1988 based on carbon-14 dating tests. The authors do not question the accuracy of the carbon-14 dating test which was done on only a single sample taken from one highly contaminated corner of the shroud, he said. However, their research looked at pollen grains and images from the entire piece of fabric and compared them with a fabric that has a documented history.
Another plant seen in a clear image on the Shroud is of the Zygophyllum dumosum species, according to the paper. This is a native plant with an unusual leaf morphology, displaying paired leaflets on the ends of leaf petiole of the current year during the beginning of winter.
Gundelia tournefortii and Zygophyllum dumosum coexist in a limited area, according to Danin, a leading authority on plants of Israel. The area is bounded by lines linking Jerusalem and Hebron in Israel and Madaba and Karak in Jordan. The area is anchored toward the Jerusalem-Hebron zone with the addition of a third species, Cistus creticus, identified as being placed on the Shroud through an analysis of pollen and floral imaging.
"This combination of flowers can be found in only one region of the world," Danin stated. "The evidence clearly points to a floral grouping from the area surrounding Jerusalem."
Danin stated that the evidence revealing these species on the Shroud suggests that they were placed with the body prior to the process that caused the formation of images on the cloth. According to Danin, his findings corroborate the following sequence of events:

* Laying the body on the linen;
* Placing flowering plants and other objects along with the body;
* Folding the cloth over the body;
* Initiation of the process that caused the formation of the images.

Images of Capparis aegyptia flowers, which display a distinctive pattern during daylight hours, have also been seen on the Shroud. The process of buds opening ceases when the flowers are picked and no water is supplied. The images of these flowers on the Shroud suggest they were picked in the Judean Desert or the Dead Sea Valley between 3 and 4 p.m. on the day they were placed on the Shroud.
The images of the flowers on the Shroud are also depicted in art of the early centuries, according to the upcoming publication. Early icons on some 7th century coins portray a number of flower images that accurately match floral images seen on the Shroud today, according to PIOT analysis by the Whangers. The researchers suggest that the faint images on the Shroud were probably clearer in earlier centuries.
Botanical investigation of the Shroud began with Max Frei's 1973 observations of pollen grains on the Shroud, which he sampled by means of sticky tape. Frei took a second set of 27 sticky tape samples from the Shroud during the scientific study in 1978. In 1979 he took 46 sticky tape samples from the Sudarium of Oviedo. In 1983 faint floral images on the Shroud linen were noted by O. Scheuermann, and subsequently in 1985 by the Whangers. Botanist Avinoam Danin began collaborating with Shroud researchers Alan and Mary Whanger in 1995. They were joined by Israeli pollen expert Uri Baruch in 1998. Frei's Shroud botanical collections were acquired in 1994 by the Council for Study of the Shroud of Turin (CSST) and became the resource for this study which analyzed 313 pollen grains.
The burial cloth known today as the Shroud of Turin is a linen rectangle measuring 4.35 meters by 1.1 meter. It has been kept in the city of Turin (Torino), Italy, since 1578. In 1694, the Shroud was placed in a special chapel within the Italian cathedral of St. John the Baptist. Except for a brief period during World War II when the cloth was moved elsewhere for safety, the Shroud remained in this cathedral until the night of April 11, 1997, when a raging fire necessitated its removal. The Shroud was not damaged, and was kept elsewhere in the city until it again was placed in the cathedral for public display from April 18 through June 14, 1998.
While there have long been historical, literary, and artistic claims that the Shroud represents the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, there has been little scientific evidence to support this. In 1988, carbon-14 dating of a single sample from a corner of the Shroud was identified to be from 1260 to 1390 A.D., leading to the widespread conclusion that the entire Shroud was from the Medieval period.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990803073154.htm

Claim:   “just because you can’t explain something doesn’t mean it’s supernatural.” (p. 24) With no apparent readily available explanations for these features of the Shroud, shroudies have concluded that the only explanation is a supernatural one: Jesus’ resurrection, by an unknown mysterious process, created the image, without pigment, after the Shroud was stained with his blood. But, instead of immediately jumping to the supernatural explanation, if they were thinking scientifically and critically, shroudies would continue to search for a natural one—which, as we shall see, is readily available (and a bit obvious when you think about it).
Reply: Eliminative inductions argue for the truth of a proposition by arguing that competitors to that proposition are false. Provided the proposition, together with its competitors, form a mutually exclusive and exhaustive class, eliminating all the competitors entails that the proposition is true. Since either there is a God, or not, either one or the other is true. As Sherlock Holmes's famous dictum says: when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however not fully comprehensible, but logically possible, must be the truth. Eliminative inductions, in fact, become deductions.

Besides this, we actually DO have a scientific explanation, and it points to a supernatural, or miraculous institution of the image:

How was the image made ?

Magis Center  How did the image form on the Shroud? May 27, 2019
“According to Jackson, an intense burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation produced a discoloration on the uppermost surface of the Shroud’s fibrils (without scorching it), which gave rise to a perfect three-dimensional negative image of both the frontal and dorsal parts of the body wrapped in it.” -Fr. Robert Spitzer
https://blog.magiscenter.com/blog/how-did-shroud-turin-get-image?fbclid=IwAR1RJLWSf7m0agPDmLLoWcpmA_hE-wWJ14xceXPb9HCOQ8bzx9xLkQKyjPk

Paolo Di Lazzaro Coloring of linen fabrics by ultraviolet radiation 2 Maggio 2015
From the chemical point of view, the image is due to a molecular modification of the surface of the linen fiber16 constituted of polysaccharides (chains of glucose). These polysaccharides underwent an alteration as a consequence of an acting-at-a-distance phenomenon. In particular, the chemical reaction consists of dehydration with oxidation and conjugation (acid–base reaction). The image is not composed of painting pigments or other substances of that kind.
https://www.academia.edu/12273176/Colorazione_di_tessuti_di_lino_tramite_radiazione_ultravioletta

Paolo Di Lazzaro Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Turin Shroud Image July 2010
Our results show that a very short and intense flash of directional VUV radiation can color a linen fabric in order to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image of the Shroud of Turin, including color tone, surface coloring of the outermost fibrils of the linen, and the absence of fluorescence. However, it should be noted that the total power of the VUV radiation required for instantly color the surface of a linen corresponding to a human body of medium height, equal to IT corpor body surface area = 2000 MW / cm2 x 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion Watts

makes it impossible today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single excimer laser, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market reach a few billion watts). Rather, the work summarized in this Technical Report has demonstrated that laser radiation is a suitable tool for studying in detail the physical and chemical processes that they could be the basis of the production of the body image of the Shroud, regardless of the source of radiation (or energy) that may have generated this image.

The Shroud image presents some characteristics that we have not yet managed to reproduce, for example the nuance of the image due to a different concentration of yellow-colored fibrils alternating with non-fibrils colored. There are sophisticated diffractive optics that would allow to replicate these characteristics too, but this goes far beyond our intentions: our aim is not to demonstrate that a battery of ten thousand lasers excimer can exactly reproduce the body image of the Shroud. Our main purpose is to carry out accurate, controlled and reproducible experiments, suitable to understand the detail of the physical and chemical mechanisms that they produced the Shroud image, thanks to a powerful and versatile tool such as the excimer laser.

Claim: On top of all of that, there is (i) the fact that no Jewish burial traditions include surrounding a person in one cloth folded over at the feet. They instead wrapped them in strips of linen.
Reply: Perhaps the answer or solution to this apparent problem is that John, an eyewitness of these events, was not in fact speaking to exactly the same part of the burial activity as the other three writers who received their information second hand, but to a quite different aspect of the process of which he personally was aware and which is not that well known today. Taken literally, John appears to be saying that the body of Jesus was “tied with linen strips” (ὀθόνια) in connection with his burial. If we then use his account of the burial of Lazarus some chapters earlier to help with the interpretation of just what is meant (“the feet and hands bound with cords,” John 11:44) we would have to say this tying of Jesus also probably was applied to the hands and feet, not to the whole body. The Lazarus account goes on to say, “λύσατε—loose/untie him” (KJV); (not: “take off the grave clothes” - NIV) and let him depart.” Then the picture becomes clear and the items mentioned later in the gospels that were found by the first visitors to the grave, the linen strips and the folded cloth, can be put into better perspective. The gospels are not in conflict—no Scripture is. Rather, it is much more likely that our understanding of Jewish burial practices simply has not been that clear now after a span of almost 2000 years. And it may have been a preconception or simple misconception on the part of both early and later translators that attempted to force from John’s words a parallel meaning to the first three gospels in regard to the wrapping of Jesus, when in fact he was speaking to something quite different—a tying of the limbs to hold them in position at the time of burial due to rigor mortis rather than a separate wrapping or covering of the entire body with strips.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/the-shroud-of-turin/3199-some-ruminations-on-the-shroud-of-turin

The Shroud of Turin - The Evidence of Authenticity See after 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5NEY0NkPrw


Claim: most damning are the efforts of N.D. Wilson, who produced a replica of the Shroud, that is identical to it in every relevant way, by painting an image on a sheet of glass, placing it over a blank shroud, and leaving it in the sun for 10 days.
Reply: Episode #11: Has The Shroud Been Debunked? John Calvin vs. The Shroud Oct. 15, 2019
N.D. Wilson’s amazing 2005 article in Christianity Today, entitled “Father Brown fakes The Shroud” is a must read for Shroud enthusiasts. Unfortunately, the only possible way to read it is to get your hands on that 2005 magazine in a library somewhere, or pay CT $30 for a digital subscription - which is what I did. 15 years ago N.D. Wilson supposedly figured out how one might fake The Shroud of Turin, and since that time, I have heard several people say or intimate that The Shroud had conclusively been proven a fraud with the 1-2 punch of #1 1988 medieval dating and #2 Wilson’s reproduction.

Wilson’s method of duplicating The Shroud is ingenious. Basically, he and an artist friend painted a reverse image on a large pane of glass, and then had the sun shine through that image onto a Linen cloth over a period of several days. The sun bleached the cloth - lighter in areas of heavy paint and darker in areas of light paint. The resulting image does indeed look fairly authentic and Shroud-like to the naked eye. It does prove that it is possible, with the right equipment,  to put a negative-like image like The Shroud onto a linen cloth. Here are some objections that have been raised:

1. The cloth contains pollen from plants only found in Palestine - that would be difficult for a European forger to get. For one, he would have no idea that such a thing could potentially authenticate The Shroud. Wilson notes that the cloth could have been procured from a first century, Jewish grave, which I suppose is technically possible.

2. The figure in the Turin Shroud is pierced through his wrists, not through his hands. In recent years, it has been discovered that crucified people would have to have been pierced through their wrists (and not their hands) in order to actually be suspended from a cross. This does not at all contradict the Passion accounts in all four Gospels in the Bible, because the Greek word used for ‘hands’ can also include the wrist area, unlike our English, which more clearly delineates between the two. Almost the totality of medieval art depicts the nails used during the crucifixion of Jesus being located in the hands, rather than the wrists. If the Shroud were a forgery, it is remarkable in the extreme that the forger would have known to include nail holes in the wrists, rather than in the hands.

3. I am not an expert on 1300s era glass technology, but some who are have argued that the kind of large and flat pane windows that would have been needed to sun-bleach the painted image of a man onto a large linen cloth would not have been available in the early medieval period. This is a fairly strong objection that I don’t believe Wilson’s article - as thorough as it is - addresses fully.

4. The figure on the Shroud has real wounds and real blood. This, of course, means that it was more than merely a sun-bleached image. Wilson contends that somebody had to have been murdered in order for forgers to make The Shroud using his method. Again, such a thing is technically possible.

5. It appears to some that the figure in The Shroud has coins in its eyes - and the type of coins appear to be first century coins that would have been commonly used in Israel during the time of Christ. That a medieval forger would be able to add such a detail is fairly astonishing. Of course, as with everything surrounding The Shroud, others (and Wilson, I presume) argue that there are no coin impressions in the eyes of the Shroud-figure.

6. Finally, if The Shroud is a forgery, those who painted the image on the glass had a remarkable and accurate knowledge of both the full details of Roman crucifixion and how the body would have responded to such crucifixion. Additionally, the anonymous forgers would have had to have a strong knowledge of anatomy and wound-effects, as the wounds on The Shroud figure are consistent with what modern medical technology would expect. Wilson contends that there were many medieval people with deep and accurate knowledge of anatomy, and the only reason we don’t expect the forgers to have such knowledge is because we have a sort of bias against people from the past and assume they are unsophisticated and unintelligent. Such bias is certainly real, I will readily admit, though it does seem that medical history of the last 500 years demonstrates that medieval medicine and anatomy was indeed quite primitive.

So - did Wilson definitively prove that medieval forgers could have produced The Shroud? Maybe, maybe not. Even Wilson admits, “I have not proved much. Or, I do not think that I have. Men and women who have believed in the Shroud will continue to believe. There is a fireman somewhere in Italy who risked his life to save the Shroud. I have a great deal of respect for that man. Perhaps I've given those who disbelieve more reason for noses lifted in the air, but I have not proved that the Shroud was faked. What I have done is crudely demonstrate that such an image could easily be produced in a matter of weeks by wicked men with no scruples, a little imagination, and a little more skill. The fact that it could have been faked does not mean that it was, though I believe it to have been. ”  

I’ll say this - Wilson’s supposed forgers would have had to be: remarkably intelligent, gifted with art, well supplied with very rare (if existent) glass panes, and have an astonishing - for the time - knowledge of medicine, Roman history and human anatomy. Additionally, they would have had to be in possession of a cloth from Palestine, and possibly even pollen that had come from Palestine as well.

There have been other attempts to recreate the Shroud as well. In 2009 the University of Pavia organic chemistry professor and skeptic society member Luigi Garlaschelli produced a fairly convincing (at first glance) reproduction.

He describes his attempt: "What you have now is a very fuzzy, dusty and weak image, Then for the sake of completeness I have added the bloodstains, the burns, the scorching because there was a fire in 1532."

Garlaschelli says his work disproves the claims of the shroud's strongest supporters.

"Basically the Shroud of Turin has some strange properties and characteristics that they say cannot be reproduced by human hands,"For example, the image is superficial and has no pigment, it looks so lifelike and so on, and therefore they say it cannot have been done by an artist."

"The procedure is very simple. The artist took this sheet and put it over one of his assistants," "His good idea was to wrap the sheet over the person underneath because he didn't want to obtain an image that was too obviously a painting or a drawing, so with this procedure you get a strange image, Time did the rest,"

As you might imagine, there are several people who disagree that Garlaschelli has produced a convincing replica. Dr. Thibault Heimburger has written an extensive and scientific rebuttal of Garlaschelli’s method, essentially arguing that it does not really duplicate all of the elements of the Shroud, but is only a superficial likeness. His paper, linked in the shownotes, concludes:

L.G. concluded: “We have also shown that pigments containing traces of acidic compounds can be artificially aged after the rubbing step (…) in such a way that, when the pigment is washed away, an image is obtained having the expected characteristics as the Shroud of Turin. In particular the image is pseudo negative, is fuzzy with half-tones, resides on the top-most fibers of the cloth, has some 3D embedded properties and does not fluoresce”. I think to the contrary that the image has none of these characteristics (except negativity and nonfluorescence). L.G. used a sophisticated method and a new interesting hypothesis, and he got the best Shroud-like image today. It is interesting to notice that even so, the properties of his image remain in fact very far from the fundamental properties of the Shroud image. 9 For the moment, the Shroud image remains unfakeable.
https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/bible-2021-10/episode-11-has-the-shroud-TLVEey6GpuM/

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

1978 S.Tu.R.P. members:
-Joseph S. Accetta (Infrared spectroscopy), Lockheed Corporation
-Dr. Allan Adler (Biochemist, tape sample analysis), Western Connecticut State University
-Steven Baumgart (Infrared spectral measurements), Air Force Weapons Laboratory
-Ernest H. Brooks II (Scientific photography), Brooks Institute of Photography
-Robert Bucklin (forensic pathologist), Harris County, Texas, Medical Examiner's Office
-Donald Devan (Scientific photography, image analysis), Oceanographic Services Inc.
-Robert Dinegar (Chemistry, tape sample removal/analysis), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Rudolph J. Dichtl (Electric power expert), University of Colorado
-Thomas F. D'Muhala (Nuclear physicist, team lead), Nuclear Technology Corporation
-Jim Drusik (Conservation), Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
-Mark Evans (Microphotography, photomicroscopy), Brooks Institute of Photography
-Joseph M. Gambescia Sr. (Medical analysis), St. Agnes Medical Center - Medical analysis
-John D. German (Electric power expert), Air Force Weapons Laboratory
-Roger Gilbert (Visible/UV spectroscopy), Oriel Corporation
-Marty Gilbert (Visible/UV spectroscopy), Oriel Corporation
-Thomas Haverty (Thermography), Rocky Mountain Thermograph
-John Heller (Biophysics), New England Institute
-John P. Jackson (Phsicist, STURP President, measurements/analysis), US Air Force Academy
-Donald Janney (Image analysis), Los Alamos National Laboratories
-Joan Janney, Los Alamos National Laboratories
-Eric J. Jumper (Thermodynamicist, STURP Vice-president, measurements/analysis), US Air Force -Academy
-J. Ronald London (X-ray radiography and X-ray fluorescence), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Jean Lorre (Image analysis), Jet Propulsion Laboratory
-Donald J. Lynn (Image analysis), Jet Propulsion Laboratory
-Vernon D. Miller (Scientific photography), Brooks Institute of Photography
-Roger A. Morris (X-ray fluorescence), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Robert W. Mottern (Image analysis, X-ray radiography), Sandia Laboratories
-Samuel Pellicori (Optical physicist, Visible/UV spectroscopy), Santa Barbara Research Center
-Raymond Rogers (Thermal chemist), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Larry Schwalbe (Physics, X-ray fluorescesnce), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Barrie M. Schwortz (Documentation Photography), Barrie Schwortz Studios
-Diane Soran (Chemistry, Archaeology), Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Kenneth E. Stevenson, IBM

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Claim: Jesus was buried with what amounted to a plaster molding, soaked in 70 pounds of herbs and spices. It would not have been something that you could simply fold like a piece of cloth.
Reply:

Giulio Fanti Science and Christian Faith: The Example of the Turin Shroud January 17, 2019

Use of Aromas for the Burial
P.L. Baima Bollone, found traces of aromas such as aloe and myrrh on the Shroud probably used to bury the body of the Man. Interestingly, according to the custom of the Jews, P. Vignon reported that rolled bandages impregnated with aromatic oils surrounded the body wrapped in the Shroud. The term “linen cloths” (from the Greek “othonia”), in the plural, was preferred by the apostle John to the term “sindon” used by the other Evangelists probably because in reference to the set of linens like Shroud, sudarion and various bandages used for burial.

a. Nicodemus, … also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about seventy-five pounds (Jn 19:39).

b. Then they took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews (Jn 19:40).
https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/GJAA.MS.ID.555726.php

Shroud Spectrum International No. 13 Part 3
Immunologic Identification of Aloes and Myrrh
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi13part3.pdf

C. Barta New coincidence between Shroud of Turin and Sudarium of Oviedo 2015

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Sudari10
Overlap of the crown of thorn wounds at the nape area in Sudarium and Shroud highlighting the “loose ponytail”.

The Sudarium of Oviedo and the Shroud of Turin are two relics attributed to Jesus Christ that show a series of amazing coincidences previously described. These similarities suggest that both cloths were used by the same personality.

https://www.shs-conferences.org/articles/shsconf/pdf/2015/02/shsconf_atsi2014_00008.pdf

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

43The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Empty The blood on the Shroud of Turin Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:08 am

Otangelo


Admin

The blood on the Shroud of Turin

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688p25-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#8991

Information not observable to the naked eye showed a mass of injuries, wounds in the wrists and feet and innumerable bloodstains.
Included in these innumerable bloodstains, are at least a hundred tiny dumbbell-shaped scourge marks on the Shroudman's body and legs[26], which match wounds caused by a Roman flagrum with two lead balls on the end of each of its three thongs[27] [Right [see 08Oct16] & 15Jul13]], evidently designed to cause internal bleeding so a crucifixion victim didn't die too soon of blood loss[28]. Each of those scourge wounds has tiny blood clots which each have a serum retraction `halo', clearly visible in ultraviolet light [ [29]] but barely visible, and some are invisible, to the naked eye[30]. Therefore a medieval forger would not only require a modern knowledge of the physiology of clot retraction, but would have to produce images of serum rings that are clearly evident only under ultraviolet light (which was only discovered in 1801!)[31].
https://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2021/07/


The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Y9hvzuey

The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 54ppd5b5

The PLOS ONE Editors Retraction: Atomic resolution studies detect new biologic evidences on the Turin Shroud 2018 Jul 19
there are not sufficient controls to support conclusions referring to human blood or physical trauma. For example, period ink and animal blood controls were not included in diffraction and STEM analyses, as would be needed to rule out alternate interpretations regarding the material on the fiber, and the creatinine findings do not provide definitive evidence of trauma or violence. Thus, we consider that the main conclusions of the article are not sufficiently supported
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053220/

Reply to Retraction of the paper “Atomic resolution studies detect new biologic evidences on the Turin Shroud” by all the authors of the paper 26 Jul 2018
Our experimental data are compatible with creatinine with inside ferrihydrate cores. The observed nano-particles are not compatible with pigments, inks and other chemical/biological compounds, as explicitly explained.  Creatinine can be found also in sweat, but we found “creatinine bounded to iron oxide ferritin cores”. This is a different compound with a negligible presence in healthy organisms whereas can be found consistently only in the blood serum under pathological conditions producing the rupture of the cells and the interaction in the blood stream between creatinine and the ferrihydrate clusters contained in the ferritin.  This compound is toxic for the organism and it is related to acute kidney disease. This is one of the reason why many injured in strong accidents could die for kidney disease. This is the finding that can be related to strong polytrauma and that cannot be explained by supposing contamination simply with the blood of someone who accidentally touched the Turin Shroud while he was bleeding. It could be animal blood. But, if it was the case, the animal would have suffered a strong polytrauma. This would call the intention of an artist to produce an artifact; but why should he use the blood serum after torture? Should we think that an artist in the Middle Ages could have used the blood serum of a tortured person or animal to produce the exact pattern that someone, using the equipment and the technologies of many centuries later, would have detected?
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/comment?id=10.1371/annotation/1db55bd5-b398-468c-9536-524cb6340480

Claim: "The Microscope"(ISSN 0026-282X) is not a peer-reviewed journal and that somehow the detected artist's pigments (ochre and vermillion) don't actually exist. Wishful thinking doesn't work.
Reply: Giulio Fanti Blood reinforced by pigments in the reddish stains of the Turin Shroud May–June 2017

Samples from the Turin Shroud (TS) furnished by STERA Inc. have been analyzed and compared with both material coming from the TS and sticky tapes taken from a copy of the TS produced in 1656 and conserved at Palma di Montechiaro, Sicily, Italy. The attention has been focalized to the many reddish particles contained in these samples that appear to be of many types, shape and sizes. Some of them seem to correspond to the so called “sub-micron particles” recognized by W. McCrone in the form of red ochre (iron oxide) and vermillion (mercury sulfide); the others, as described by many researchers of the STuRP like A. Adler and J. Heller, seem typical of blood. After a detailed analysis of these particles by using various types of microscopes and by performing different spectral analyses like Raman and EDX, the results obtained are commented, reaching the conclusion that the analyzed reddish material, corresponding to some TS bloodstain area, contain human blood reinforced with pigments. It can therefore be supposed that the bloodstains, originally composed of blood, have been refreshed by some artist perhaps during the XVII century.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207417300092

Claim: "cross-reactivity precludes a definitive assignment of human or even primate blood being present on the Shroud; the blood is most correctly classified as species unknown." - this is what happens with tiny samples and HUGE confirmation biases. The albumin is a 'generic mammal'.
Reply: 

The Shroud of Turin’s ‘Blood’ Images: Blood, or Paint? 
Production of the body and ‘blood’ images involved an actual human body. The red color of much of the ‘blood,’ the high bilirubin levels detected therein, and the body image lend strong support to the view that the ‘blood’ came from a beaten individual.

Regarding the ‘blood,’ Heller and Adler (hereafter H&A) concluded that it was actual blood material on the basis of physics-based and chemistrybased testing, most tests of which will be discussed, specifically the following: detection of higher-than elsewhere levels of iron in ‘blood’ areas via X-ray fluorescence, indicative spectra obtained by microspectrophotometry, generation with chemicals and ultraviolet light of characteristic porphyrin fluorescence, positive tests for hemochromagen using hydrazine, positive tests for cyanmethemoglobin using a neutralized cyanide solution, positive tests for the bile pigment bilirubin, positive tests for protein, and use of proteolytic enzymes on ‘blood’ material, leaving no residues. The tests and data not discussed 3 are the reflection spectra indicative of bilirubin’s32 and blood’s presence,33 chemical detection of the specific protein albumin,34 the presence of serum halos around various ‘blood’ marks when viewed under ultraviolet light,35 the immunological determination that the ‘blood’ is of primate origin,36 and the forensic judgement that the various blood and wound marks appear extremely realistic.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ford1.pdf

Deacon Pedro Deacon-structing the Shroud of Turin: The facts September 13, 2021
Blood samples
Traces of human blood were found on the shroud. Tests have confirmed that this blood belonged to a human body at the time of death, as it was already coagulating on the skin. The blood is very dense, which is a common result of dehydration. Because of the amount of bilirubin found in the blood, it can also be concluded that the man had been beaten in the hours preceding his death.
Blood samples taken from the cloth were found to be type AB. These samples also helped determine the DNA of the man of the shroud. Experts explain that the blood samples are so old and degraded that very few DNA segments were found, eliminating any possibility of cloning anything from the blood found on the cloth. Other DNA experts argue, however, that so much contamination exists on the shroud that no DNA test, no matter how carefully done, could ever be considered definitive.
https://slmedia.org/blog/deacon-structing-the-shroud-of-turin-the-facts

Kelly P. Kearse Blood on the Shroud of Turin: An Immunological Review 2012
In summary, the preponderance of current scientific evidence indicates that: (i) there is blood on the Shroud of Turin; (ii) the blood is of primate, i.e. human origin; and (iii) the blood type is most likely AB as determined by forward typing methods, specifically mixed agglutination and immunohistochemistry techniques. Results highlighted in green show the nucleotide sequence on the shroud is that of either a human or an orangutan. The orangutan sequence is the same as humans in this region but contains 5 nucleotide differences in other regions of the gene (not shown). That leaves us with only one option for the blood on the shroud. Human Blood! (K. Kearse 2012)
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/kearse1.pdf





Last edited by Otangelo on Wed May 18, 2022 2:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Reply to the YouTube video : Is The Shroud Of Turin A HOAX? Jan 25, 2020

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688p25-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#9045

Is The Shroud Of Turin A HOAX? Jan 25, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zO6gMjl0yw

Claim: Catholic community believers say it stains are the blood of while others have questioned whether the stains are even blood at all
Reply:  The blood on the Shroud of Turin
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688p25-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#8991

Deacon Pedro Deacon-structing the Shroud of Turin: The facts September 13, 2021
Blood samples
Traces of human blood were found on the shroud. Tests have confirmed that this blood belonged to a human body at the time of death, as it was already coagulating on the skin. The blood is very dense, which is a common result of dehydration. Because of the amount of bilirubin found in the blood, it can also be concluded that the man had been beaten in the hours preceding his death.
Blood samples taken from the cloth were found to be type AB. These samples also helped determine the DNA of the man of the shroud. Experts explain that the blood samples are so old and degraded that very few DNA segments were found, eliminating any possibility of cloning anything from the blood found on the cloth. Other DNA experts argue, however, that so much contamination exists on the shroud that no DNA test, no matter how carefully done, could ever be considered definitive.
https://slmedia.org/blog/deacon-structing-the-shroud-of-turin-the-facts

Claim:  earlier carbon-dating work has determined that it dates to 1260 to 1390
Reply:  Age of the shroud of turin
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#7139

Raymond N. Rogers Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin  12 September 2004
Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.
https://sci-hub.ren/10.1016/j.tca.2004.09.029

RADIOCARBON DATING OF THE TURIN SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE FROM RAW DATA * 15 February 2019
Recently, we obtained the raw data and, for the first time, measured their convergence with the radiocarbon dates published in Nature.
Our results, which are compatible with those previously reported by many other authors (Brunati 1996; Van Haelst 1997, 2002; Riani et al. 2013), strongly suggest that homogeneity is lacking in the data. The measurements made by the three laboratories on the TS sample suffer from a lack of precision which seriously affects the reliability of the 95% AD 1260–1390 interval.

Claim: the Turin Commission concluded in 1979 that stains on the garment are likely pigment not blood
Reply: Giulio Fanti Blood reinforced by pigments in the reddish stains of the Turin Shroud May–June 2017
 After a detailed analysis of these particles by using various types of microscopes and by performing different spectral analyses like Raman and EDX, the results obtained are commented, reaching the conclusion that the analyzed reddish material, corresponding to some TS bloodstain area, contain human blood reinforced with pigments. It can therefore be supposed that the bloodstains, originally composed of blood, have been refreshed by some artist perhaps during the XVII century.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207417300092

Claim:  pierre DRC's the catholic bishop in troy's wrote to pope clement the seventh that the shroud was a clever sleight of hand by someone falsely declaring this was the actual Shroud in which Jesus was unfolded in the tomb to attract the multitude so that money might cunningly be wrung from them
Reply: 
Chronology of the Turin Shroud: AD 30 to the present FOURTEENTH CENTURY Stephen E. Jones
 D'Arcis provided no evidence in his memorandum to substantiate his claims[45], which he would have if there had been any[46]. D'Arcis did not provide the name of the artist[47], nor a record of his confession[48], nor the source of his allegations[49]. There is also no record of Henri de Poitiers conducting any inquiry into the origin of Shroud[50] and d'Arcis did not even know its date[51]! But there is a record of a letter of 28 May 1356[see "1356a"], from Bishop Henri de Poitiers, praising Geoffroy I, ratifying the Lirey church and approving its "divine cult"[52], which presumably refers to the Shroud[53]! It is also highly unlikely that Geoffrey I de Charny, the owner of the Shroud in the 1350s [see "c.1355"], one of France's most ethical knights, and a devout author of religious poetry, was complicit in forging Jesus' burial shroud[54]. The final refutation of the d'Arcis memorandum is that the image of the man on the Shroud is not painted
https://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/search?q=Pierre+d%27Arcis

Claim: even if the Shroud of Turin did turn out to be real and it really was this thing that Jesus died in or the the thing that Jesus was wrapped up in after he died it doesn't mean that Jesus was a divine being it doesn't mean that he performed miracles
Reply:  How was the image made ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#7140


Magis Center  How did the image form on the Shroud? May 27, 2019
“According to Jackson, an intense burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation produced a discoloration on the uppermost surface of the Shroud’s fibrils (without scorching it), which gave rise to a perfect three-dimensional negative image of both the frontal and dorsal parts of the body wrapped in it.” -Fr. Robert Spitzer
https://blog.magiscenter.com/blog/how-did-shroud-turin-get-image?fbclid=IwAR1RJLWSf7m0agPDmLLoWcpmA_hE-wWJ14xceXPb9HCOQ8bzx9xLkQKyjPk

Paolo Di Lazzaro Coloring of linen fabrics by ultraviolet radiation 2 Maggio 2015
From the chemical point of view, the image is due to a molecular modification of the surface of the linen fiber16 constituted of polysaccharides (chains of glucose). These polysaccharides underwent an alteration as a consequence of an acting-at-a-distance phenomenon. In particular, the chemical reaction consists of dehydration with oxidation and conjugation (acid–base reaction). The image is not composed of painting pigments or other substances of that kind.
https://www.academia.edu/12273176/Colorazione_di_tessuti_di_lino_tramite_radiazione_ultravioletta

Paolo Di Lazzaro Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Turin Shroud Image July 2010
Our results show that a very short and intense flash of directional VUV radiation can color a linen fabric in order to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image of the Shroud of Turin, including color tone, surface coloring of the outermost fibrils of the linen, and the absence of fluorescence. However, it should be noted that the total power of the VUV radiation required for instantly color the surface of a linen corresponding to a human body of medium height, equal to IT corpor body surface area = 2000 MW / cm2 x 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion Watts

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Is the Shroud of Turin Authentic Or A Hoax? Apr 2, 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYTalKE5lYE

Objection: the evidence is stacked against this assumption. Jewish burial rites required the body of the   deceased to be wrapped in strips of cloth,  not in a continuous length of material.
Reply: Perhaps the answer or solution to this apparent problem is that John, an eyewitness of these events, was not in fact speaking to exactly the same part of the burial activity as the other three writers who received their information second hand, but to a quite different aspect of the process of which he personally was aware and which is not that well known today. Taken literally, John appears to be saying that the body of Jesus was “tied with linen strips” (ὀθόνια) in connection with his burial. If we then use his account of the burial of Lazarus some chapters earlier to help with the interpretation of just what is meant (“the feet and hands bound with cords,” John 11:44) we would have to say this tying of Jesus also probably was applied to the hands and feet, not to the whole body. The Lazarus account goes on to say, “λύσατε—loose/untie him” (KJV); (not: “take off the grave clothes” - NIV) and let him depart.” Then the picture becomes clear and the items mentioned later in the gospels that were found by the first visitors to the grave, the linen strips and the folded cloth, can be put into better perspective. The gospels are not in conflict—no Scripture is. Rather, it is much more likely that our understanding of Jewish burial practices simply has not been that clear now after a span of almost 2000 years. And it may have been a preconception or simple misconception on the part of both early and later translators that attempted to force from John’s words a parallel meaning to the first three gospels in regard to the wrapping of Jesus, when in fact he was speaking to something quite different—a tying of the limbs to hold them in position at the time of burial due to rigor mortis rather than a separate wrapping or covering of the entire body with strips.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/the-shroud-of-turin/3199-some-ruminations-on-the-shroud-of-turin


The Shroud of Turin - The Evidence of Authenticity See after 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5NEY0NkPrw

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

1. It's not a painting  If this were true, it should be possible to identify the pigments used by chemical analysis, just as conservators can do for the paintings of Old Masters. But the Sturp team found no evidence of any pigments or dyes on the cloth in sufficient amounts to explain the image. Nor are there any signs of it being rendered in brush strokes.
2. The entire image is very superficial in nature, Around 20 - 30 microns in-depth is approximately 0.2 thousandths of a millimeter (about 0.000008 inches) only on the uppermost surface of the fibrils, the inner side is not, thus it could not have been formed by chemicals, The image resides on the outermost layer of the linen fibers. 
3. It's not a photograph Secondo Pia's photograph showed that the image on the cloth is a negative: dark where it should be bright. 
4. It was not made by a natural chemical process It has been confirmed that the image is the result of oxidation, dehydration, and conjugation of the fibers of the shroud themselves. It is like the imaged areas on the shroud suddenly rapidly aged compared to the rest of the shroud. The image on the shroud is the only one of its kind in this world, and there are no known methods that can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological, or medical circumstances explain the image adequately (S.T.U.R.P's conclusion) 
5. The image was not produced by vapors from chemicals or vapors from the corpse itself. Vapors from chemicals, or from the corpse itself, do not explain how the image is present on parts of the body where the cloth clearly did not touch the body (i.e. areas on either side of Christ’s projected nose).
6.  A burst of 34 thousand billion Watts of vacuum-ultraviolet radiation produced a discoloration on the uppermost surface of the Shroud’s fibrils (without scorching it), which gave rise to a perfect three-dimensional negative image of both the frontal and dorsal parts of the body wrapped in it.” We currently do not know of any natural cause for a human corpse producing ultraviolet radiation like this. A very short and intense flash of directional VUV radiation can color the linen fabric. The total power of the VUV radiation required for instantly color the surface of a linen corresponding to a human body of medium height, equal to the corporate body surface area = 2000 MW / cm2 x 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion Watts

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Could the Shroud be a forgery?
Considerable efforts have been made to demonstrate that the Shroud is a fraud. The investigations to reproduce the Shroud of Turin only demonstrate that the best efforts do not suffice to come even close to the image of the original. The results are far away from the original, very poor, and can be easily identified as made by an artist. Copies have been made that look like it but they lack all of the image characteristics that make the shroud image unique. Science cannot explain nor replicate the image..the closest we have come to replicating it (allegedly) is by bombarding linen samples with VUV Excimer Lasers.

How was the image made?
1. It's not a painting  If this were true, it should be possible to identify the pigments used by chemical analysis, just as conservators can do for the paintings of Old Masters. But the Sturp team found no evidence of any pigments or dyes on the cloth in sufficient amounts to explain the image. Nor are there any signs of it being rendered in brush strokes.
2. The entire image is very superficial in nature, Around 20 - 30 microns in-depth is approximately 0.2 thousandths of a millimeter (about 0.000008 inches) only on the uppermost surface of the fibrils, the inner side is not, thus it could not have been formed by chemicals, The image resides on the outermost layer of the linen fibers. 
3. It's not a photograph: Secondo Pia's photograph showed that the image on the cloth is a negative: dark where it should be bright. 
4. It was not made by a natural chemical process It has been confirmed that the image is the result of oxidation, dehydration, and conjugation of the fibers of the shroud themselves. It is like the imaged areas on the shroud suddenly rapidly aged compared to the rest of the shroud. The image on the shroud is the only one of its kind in this world, and there are no known methods that can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological, or medical circumstances explain the image adequately (S.T.U.R.P's conclusion) 
5. The image was not produced by vapors from chemicals or vapors from the corpse itself. Vapors from chemicals, or from the corpse itself, do not explain how the image is present on parts of the body where the cloth clearly did not touch the body (i.e. areas on either side of Christ’s projected nose).
6.  A burst of 34 thousand billion Watts of vacuum-ultraviolet radiation produced a discoloration on the uppermost surface of the Shroud’s fibrils (without scorching it), which gave rise to a perfect three-dimensional negative image of both the frontal and dorsal parts of the body wrapped in it.” We currently do not know of any natural cause for a human corpse producing ultraviolet radiation like this. A very short and intense flash of directional VUV radiation can color the linen fabric. The total power of the VUV radiation required for instantly color the surface of a linen corresponding to a human body of medium height, equal to the corporate body surface area = 2000 MW / cm2 x 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion Watts


https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688p25-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#9082


The shroud of Turin EXTRAORDINARY evidence of Christ's resurrection - Page 2 Forger11

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Reply to the video of Derek at Mythvision: The Shroud of Turin: Is It Really Jesus Burial Cloth?

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688p25-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#9092

The Shroud of Turin: Is It Really Jesus Burial Cloth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHardhMG4Ag

Claim:  there is no testimony of the shroud that dates from before the middle ages. 
Reply:  Pre 13th century history of the Shroud
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#7144

In the beginning of the history of the Church, the Jesus burial sheet was probably kept hidden for several reasons: first of all, it was a very precious “memory,” having enveloped He who sacrificed Himself on the Cross. Furthermore, Christians feared that someone could seize and destroy it: the Hebrews, in compliance with Mosaic Law, considered everything that had touched a corpse as impure; and not Hebrews judged the punishment of crucifixion as ignominious. The reasons why the protectors of the Shroud wanted to keep it hidden are then clear. Nino, who evangelized Georgia under the Constantine empire (306–337), inquired after the Shroud to Niafori, his master, and to other Christian scholars of Jerusalem. He learned that the burial cloths had been for some time in possession of Pilate’s wife, and after, they were handed by Luke the evangelist, who stored them in a safe place known only to himself. In the fourth century, in Edessa there was the certainty that the city owned an image of Christ, created by God and not produced by the hands of man. It is said that when the image was shown it was folded in eight layers: the result of creasing the Shroud in this way gives a long rectangle with the head in its center, without a neck. This is exactly the same image shown in the copies of the Image of Edessa.

Claim:  and in fact those that do exist from the middle ages say that the shroud is a fake it is not a real relic
Reply:  pierre DRC's the catholic bishop in troy's wrote to pope clement the seventh that the shroud was a clever sleight of hand by someone falsely declaring this was the actual Shroud in which Jesus was unfolded in the tomb to attract the multitude so that money might cunningly be wrung from them
Chronology of the Turin Shroud: AD 30 to the present FOURTEENTH CENTURY Stephen E. Jones
 D'Arcis provided no evidence in his memorandum to substantiate his claims[45 ], which he would have if there had been any[46 ]. D'Arcis did not provide the name of the artist[47 ], nor a record of his confession[48 ], nor the source of his allegations[49 ]. There is also no record of Henri de Poitiers conducting any inquiry into the origin of Shroud[50 ] and d'Arcis did not even know its date[51 ]! But there is a record of a letter of 28 May 1356[see "1356a "], from Bishop Henri de Poitiers, praising Geoffroy I, ratifying the Lirey church and approving its "divine cult"[52 ], which presumably refers to the Shroud[53 ]! It is also highly unlikely that Geoffrey I de Charny, the owner of the Shroud in the 1350s [see "c.1355 "], one of France's most ethical knights, and a devout author of religious poetry, was complicit in forging Jesus' burial shroud[54 ]. The final refutation of the d'Arcis memorandum is that the image of the man on the Shroud is not painted
https://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/search?q=Pierre+d%27Arcis

Claim:  the type or style of weave of the shroud uh is typical of the middle ages uh and does not exist uh back in antiquity at the time of jesus christ
Reply: THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-shroud-of-turin#7142

Below is a summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin as the ancient burial cloth of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
by J. Michael Fischer, adapted from the original article by John C. Iannone[

Stitching used to sew on the 3-inch wide side piece onto the main Shroud is nearly identical to that found at Masada which was destroyed in 73-74 AD. The size of the Shroud being very close to 2 by 8 cubits - the ancient unit of measurement

The Shroud is a linen cloth woven in a 3-over-1 herringbone pattern, and measures 14'3" x 3'7".  These dimensions correlate with ancient measurements of 2 cubits x 8 cubits - consistent with loom technology of the period.  The finer weave of 3-over-1 herringbone is consistent with the New Testament statement that the "sindon" (or shroud) was purchased by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a wealthy man.

In 1532, there was a fire in the church in Chambery, France, where the Shroud was being kept.  Part of the metal storage case melted and fell on the cloth, leaving burns, and efforts to extinguish the fire left water stains.  Yet the image of the man was hardly touched.
In 1534, nuns sewed patches over the fire-damaged areas and attached a full-size support cloth to the back of the Shroud.  This became known as the "Holland" backing cloth.
The Shroud was moved to Turin in 1578, where it remains to this day.

In 2002, a team of experts did restoration work, such as removing the patches from 1534 and replacing the backing cloth.  One of the specialists was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg.  She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment.
The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada.  The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD.
This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe.

Stephen E. Jones The evidence is overwhelming that the Turin Shroud is authentic!
The Shroud has almost invisible stitching in its seam that is identical to stitching found elsewhere only at the Jewish fortress of Masada, which was last occupied in AD 73. Since a medieval forger would be most unlikely (to put it mildly) to even know about almost invisible first century Jewish stitching; and even if he did know about it, he would be even more unlikely to go to the trouble of adding it to his forgery (what use would almost invisible stitching be to a forger?); and even if he wanted to use it, he would be most unlikely to have the high degree of skill needed to do such stitching.
https://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-evidence-is-overwhelming-that-turin.html#para07

Claim:  and then finally there's the scientific reason and that is that in 1988 the shroud was carbon dated and the results of the carbon dated verified what we already knew
Reply: Age of the shroud of turin
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#7139

Objection: Radiocarbon dating from 1988 demonstrated that the shroud is a fabrication from the 13th century.
P. E. Damon et al.: Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin 16 February 1989
https://sci-hub.ren/10.1038/337611a0

Reply: 
Rainbowlightstudio The Shroud of Turin: Proof of Authenticity Beyond Reasonable Doubt (1 of 2) Aug 11, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJymwctqo-A

Rainbowlightstudio The Shroud of Turin 1988 Carbon Dating: Triumph or Travesty? (2 of 2) Aug 9, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBDuKZSgDSI

Raymond N. Rogers Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin  12 September 2004
Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.
https://sci-hub.ren/10.1016/j.tca.2004.09.029

In 2017 French researcher, Tristan Casabianca  filed a legal action against the British Museum, which oversaw the C-14 testing labs in 1988. The museum complied and finally released all the raw data. Casabianca’s research team ran new tests and conclude in their 2019 report that there were numerous dates that fell outside the range published in “Nature.” They prove that the Shroud cloth sample is not homogenous, and the 1988 results, famously reported with “95% confidence” are suspect. Casabianca’s team supports the widely-held belief that something went awry with the C-14 tests, which for the ensuing decades discouraged Shroud research and disparaged the Shroud as a medieval fake. Casabianca and his team are advocating that the Vatican authorize  a variety of new 21st-century testing methods not available in 1988 or 1978 during STURP’s testing.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-is-the-shroud-of-turin.html?fbclid=IwAR2Uns3ZPVtC1HFoR-jTDQc84a6PbbkkRCDiMFTwNVNaH-7HzTMv1OX22UU

RADIOCARBON DATING OF THE TURIN SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE FROM RAW DATA * 15 February 2019
Recently, we obtained the raw data and, for the first time, measured their convergence with the radiocarbon dates published in Nature.
Our results, which are compatible with those previously reported by many other authors (Brunati 1996; Van Haelst 1997, 2002; Riani et al. 2013), strongly suggest that homogeneity is lacking in the data. The measurements made by the three laboratories on the TS sample suffer from a lack of precision which seriously affects the reliability of the 95% AD 1260–1390 interval. The statistical analyses, supported by the foreign material found by the laboratories, show the necessity of a new radiocarbon dating to compute a new reliable interval. This new test requires, in an interdisciplinary research, a robust protocol. Without this re-analysis, it is not possible to affirm that the 1988 radiocarbon dating offers ‘conclusive evidence’ that the calendar age range is accurate and representative of the whole cloth.
http://sci-hub.st/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/arcm.12467

Claim: so it is possible that there was in fact a pigment on the surface of the cloth that would have painted the image on but that pigment is lost and then what's left behind then uh is in fact that yellowing that you see on the surface of the cloth
Reply: How was the image made ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1688-the-shroud-of-turin-extraordinary-evidence-of-christ-s-resurrection#7140

1. It's not a painting  If this were true, it should be possible to identify the pigments used by chemical analysis, just as conservators can do for the paintings of Old Masters. But the Sturp team found no evidence of any pigments or dyes on the cloth in sufficient amounts to explain the image. Nor are there any signs of it being rendered in brush strokes.
2. The entire image is very superficial in nature, Around 20 - 30 microns in-depth is approximately 0.2 thousandths of a millimeter (about 0.000008 inches) only on the uppermost surface of the fibrils, the inner side is not, thus it could not have been formed by chemicals, The image resides on the outermost layer of the linen fibers. 
3. It's not a photograph Secondo Pia's photograph showed that the image on the cloth is a negative: dark where it should be bright. 
4. It was not made by a natural chemical process It has been confirmed that the image is the result of oxidation, dehydration, and conjugation of the fibers of the shroud themselves. It is like the imaged areas on the shroud suddenly rapidly aged compared to the rest of the shroud. The image on the shroud is the only one of its kind in this world, and there are no known methods that can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological, or medical circumstances explain the image adequately (S.T.U.R.P's conclusion) 
5. The image was not produced by vapors from chemicals or vapors from the corpse itself. Vapors from chemicals, or from the corpse itself, do not explain how the image is present on parts of the body where the cloth clearly did not touch the body (i.e. areas on either side of Christ’s projected nose).
6.  A burst of 34 thousand billion Watts of vacuum-ultraviolet radiation produced a discoloration on the uppermost surface of the Shroud’s fibrils (without scorching it), which gave rise to a perfect three-dimensional negative image of both the frontal and dorsal parts of the body wrapped in it.” We currently do not know of any natural cause for a human corpse producing ultraviolet radiation like this. A very short and intense flash of directional VUV radiation can color the linen fabric. The total power of the VUV radiation required for instantly color the surface of a linen corresponding to a human body of medium height, equal to the corporate body surface area = 2000 MW / cm2 x 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion Watts

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

"Why did Jesus fold the cloth that covered his face at the tomb? It didn't seem important, but it is important!
The Bible records in John 20:1,7. that the linen cloth was carefully folded and placed at the head of the stone tomb.
Is that important? Definitely.
To understand the significance of the folded linen, one must know a little about the Hebrew tradition of that time. The folded linen has to do with the master and the servant, and every Jewish child knew this tradition.
When the servant set the table for his master's dinner, he took pains to set it exactly as his master wanted. The table was perfectly set and the servant waited out of sight of his master until he finished eating. The servant never dared to touch the table until the master had finished eating.
When the master finished eating, he would get up, wipe his fingers, mouth, and beard, make a roll out of his laundry, and throw it on the table. In those days, the rolled up linen meant "I'm done". When the master got up and left the folded linen next to the plate, the servant didn't dare touch the table, because the folded linen meant: "I'm not finished yet, I'll be back!"

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

MYRA ADAMS The Shroud of Turin, Authenticated Again April 16, 2016
https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/shroud-turin-jesus-christ-blood-relic-sudarium-oviedo/

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 2 of 3]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum