Atheists: what they must believe in order to refute theism
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2716-atheists-what-they-must-believe-in-order-to-refute-theism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK99BsNc2Ko
Commonly , atheists claim that atheism does not go further than declaring that the claims made by theists are not convincing. But some go further and have invented several explanations as an alternative to God. So why is materialism supposed to be rational, but theism is not? Ah, yes. Of course. Atheists can't fathom that God can create universes, but cannot make a donkey talk...Strong atheism goes with an alternative belief-system which makes God superfluous. What atheists must believe:( even if many don't hold following faith confession, that is what a materialistic worldview entails ):
Faith that design observed in nature need no designer
Faith that the natural world needs no creator.
Faith that magical nothing can create the universe or
Faith that the cosmos is eternal despite the impossibily
Faith that the physical laws need no lawgiver.
Faith that fine-tuning requires no fine-tuner
Faith that non-living matter can produce life
Faith that codes can emerge randomly
Faith that instructional information can emerge by luck.
Faith that machines can self-assemble
Faith that factories can self-assemble
Faith that evolution explains biodiversity
Faith that matter can produce consciousness
Faith that matter can produce morality
Faith that we can give ourself meaning to our lives
Faith that there is no afterlife
Faith that there is no evidence of Gods existence
Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).
Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.
Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth.
Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.
Faith that after death there are only worms.
The magical worldview of atheists
1. The universe popped into existence out of literally nothing and with no cause and for no reason. Thats magic.
2. Our universe is the result of a multiverse, which exists without beginning. We cannot reach the present moment from eternity. Thats magic
3. The fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe was done by a multiverse. That would require 10^1500 universes to get a life-permitting universe. Thats magic.
4. The first self-replicating Cell was formed by random events. The odds to get a minimal set of 560 proteins, averaging 400 amino acids, but unguided events, is 10^378000. Thats magic.
5. The genetic code was formed by random-chance. Thats magic.
6. The gentic information stored in the first living cell emerged naturally. Thats magic.
7. The translation system from digital genetic information to the analog amino acid alphabet emerged randomly. Thats magic.
8. The assembly of raw products, molecules, molecular machines, production lines, and self replicating Cell factories occured gradually, randomly, over a long period of time. Thats magic.
9. The over 20 epigenetic codes and signalling languages required to produce biocomplexity and diversity emerged naturally. Thats magic.
10. Atoms, matter and ultimatively, brains, producing minds, consciousness, self awareness, thoughts, intelligence, sensations and free will: two essentially different properties. Thats magic.
11. Atoms, matter and ultimatively, brains, producing moral awareness, ought to be's. Thats magic.
While theists hear the claim that inferring God is a gaps argument in almost every debate, are atheists not themselves actually guilty of using it?
We don't know:
- if the universe is eternal, there might be multiverses ( Multiverses are baseless speculation )
- how the Big bang started, maybe virtual particles ( Virtual particles need a quantum vacuum. Where does that come from? )
- why the universe is finely tuned - maybe bubble universes ( thats a just so, made up attempt to explain fine-tuning )
- how life started, we don't know but science is working on it ( and the answer won't be a God ) science has shown that abiogenesis is impossible.
- how exactly evolution works to produce biodiversity, but its a theory, and there is consensus in science, therefore it must be true. ( natural selection de-volves the genome )
- how the brain can produce thoughts and conscience, but we don't know of a mind being able to exist outside the brain, therefore, monism must be true. ( afterlife experiences disprove monism )
What if i told you that.......
- Gods existence is necessary and obvious. But there is no evidence of his existence.
- A sound epistemological framework requires science, philosophy, and theology. But empiricism is enough.
- Bayesian inferences are enough to deduct God. But better to insist and ask for proofs of Gods existence aniway.
- The universe and life seem designed, but they are not.
- The universe had a beginning, but there was no cause.
- Something cannot come from nothing. But the universe did.
- The universe follows physical laws. But no lawgiver set them up.
- The universe is set up by mathematical principles. But no mathematician did implement them.
- The universe is finely tuned. But requires no fine-tuner.
- Gas clouds do not clump through gravity. But its possible.
- Life is observed to come from life. Science doesn't know how it started, but the answer is luck.
- Science has demonstrated that DNA contains a genetic code. but its just an allegory.
- Codes are known to be invented only by intelligence. But the genetic code emerged randomly.
- The genetic Code is the most robust amonst over a million alternative ones. That occurred by a freaky accident.
- Translation systems come from intelligence. But the translation of mRNA to amino acids was a frozen accident.
- Only intelligence builds machines and factories based on a blueprint. But the Cell emerged by unguided random events.
- Matter is not known to be able to produce consciousness, imagination and thought. But its possible aniway.
- Objective moral values exist. But moral values are are subjective and evolve.
- Preprogrammed information and signalling is required for organismal form. But macroevolution is fact nonetheless.
- There is plenty of evidence for an afterlife. But after death, there are only worms.
- There is plenty of evidence for things that cannot be sensed ( the mind ). But there is no evidence for it.
- We seem to have free will, but in reality, don't.
How does that make any sense ?!!
The extreme skepticism and incredulity towards one explanation of origins ( theism) must lead automatically to the extreme credulity and gullibility of the opposite explanation ( philosophical naturalism ). The cop-out of not knowing about origins is unjustified wilful and purposeful ignorance upon the overwhelming knowledge that the scientific advance and inquiry has permitted us to gain, and upon which we can understand the world and reality, how the cosmos and biology works, better than ever before. That permits us to make secure inferences about historical events. Playing Sherlock Holmes was never as easy as today. Agnosticism is not justified.
If proponents of naturalism want to convince that strong atheism or the philosophical view that naturalism explains our existence better than theism, they should provide positive convincing reasons, why theists do good to believe as follows:
About the universe, its beginning and fine-tuning:
1. The Universe popped up out of nothing or is eternal
2. The physical laws were always there, nothing set them up
3. The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power out of a lucky accident. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form (because electromagnetic forces would so overwhelm gravitational forces).
4. Quarks and anti-quarks form via matter-antimatter pair production. Because of their nature, these particles instantly annihilate each other. However, during the creation of the universe, a slight asymmetry in this pair production resulted in approximately 1 extra particle of matter for every 10 billion produced. It turns out that this 1 in 10 billion ratio of “leftover particles” happens to be the exact amount of mass necessary for the formation of stars, galaxies, and planets. As much as 2 in 10 billion, and the universe would have just been filled with black holes. As little as 0.5 in 10 billion, and there wouldn’t have been enough density for galaxies to form. This was a lucky accident.
5. Upon the finetuning by a happy accident of the cosmological constant, the probability that our universe contains galaxies is akin to exactly 10^123. That is 1 possibility in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 .
5. Stars and planets exist. That happened by clump of gas upon gravitational forces, despite never proven that it is possible.
6. The right distance of the sun from the galactic center, its right position in the spiral arm, size and force of gravity of planet earth, water, the right atmosphere, right amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, rare earth minerals which make life possible, right size of the sun, its right distance from earth, the ozone layer, fundamental for life, the earths right magnetic field which protects it from deadly rays from the sun, the right tilt of earth which permits the seasons providing a balancing effect, a large, right-sized moon that stabilizes the rotation axis of its host planet, yielding a more stable, life-friendly climate, tides made possible through the moon, life essential, all just happened by a lucky accident.
the origin of life:
7. The minimal number of proteins and a proteome, metabolome, and genome emerged through enough time and biochemical trials by a lucky accident.
- According to the latest estimation of a minimal protein set for the first living organism, the requirement would be about 560 proteins, this would be the absolute minimum to keep the basic functions of a cell alive.
- According to the Protein-length distributions for the three domains of life, there is an average between prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells of about 400 amino acids per protein. 8
- Each of the 400 positions in the amino acid polypeptide chains could be occupied by any one of the 20 amino acids used in cells, so if we suppose that proteins emerged randomly on prebiotic earth, then the total possible arrangements or odds to get one which would fold into a functional 3D protein would be 1 to 20^400 or 1 to 10^520. A truly enormous, super astronomical number.
- Since we need 560 proteins total to make a first living cell, we would have to repeat the shuffle 560 times, to get all proteins required for life. The probability would be therefore 560/10520. We arrive at a probability far beyond of 1 in 10^100.000 ( A proteome set with 239 proteins yields odds of approximately 1/10^119614 )
8. Cells are complex factories, full of molecular machines, and assembly lines. Randomness produced these factories, by orderly aggregation and sequentially correct manner without external direction.
9. Cells use various codes and hierarchical levels of information, based on complex hardware/information processing machines ( computers ). Unguided forces produced these blueprints....
10. Luck or random unguided chemical forces produced DNA with the highest information storage density physically possible.
11. Cells use metabolic pathways and literally manufacturing and production assembly lines. Saint luck did the feat.
12. Cells are self-replicating. DNA replication is irreducibly complex. The biochemical lottery hit the jackpot.
13. Cells have error detection and check mechanisms. Life could not have "taken off" without them. They just appeared to be there when needed.
14. Cells require homeostasis. It just happened.
Immaterial things:
16. There is consciousness. The brain somehow produced it to give a survival advantage.
17. There are objective moral values. Nobody created them.
18. Language, logic, reasoning, free will, and moral values are not grounded in physics. They just appeared through evolution, to give a survival advantage.
19. Evolution accounts for the origin of 116 distinct language families.
20. Independent thought emerged through Darwin's idea.
21. Matter produced free will.
Dear atheist, please let me know, why that should make sense to me. And why it makes sense to you. If you can, i might become incredulous towards the God hypothesis. As long as you can't, i prefer to remain incredulous in your eyes.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2716-atheists-what-they-must-believe-in-order-to-refute-theism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK99BsNc2Ko
Commonly , atheists claim that atheism does not go further than declaring that the claims made by theists are not convincing. But some go further and have invented several explanations as an alternative to God. So why is materialism supposed to be rational, but theism is not? Ah, yes. Of course. Atheists can't fathom that God can create universes, but cannot make a donkey talk...Strong atheism goes with an alternative belief-system which makes God superfluous. What atheists must believe:( even if many don't hold following faith confession, that is what a materialistic worldview entails ):
Faith that design observed in nature need no designer
Faith that the natural world needs no creator.
Faith that magical nothing can create the universe or
Faith that the cosmos is eternal despite the impossibily
Faith that the physical laws need no lawgiver.
Faith that fine-tuning requires no fine-tuner
Faith that non-living matter can produce life
Faith that codes can emerge randomly
Faith that instructional information can emerge by luck.
Faith that machines can self-assemble
Faith that factories can self-assemble
Faith that evolution explains biodiversity
Faith that matter can produce consciousness
Faith that matter can produce morality
Faith that we can give ourself meaning to our lives
Faith that there is no afterlife
Faith that there is no evidence of Gods existence
Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).
Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.
Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth.
Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.
Faith that after death there are only worms.
The magical worldview of atheists
1. The universe popped into existence out of literally nothing and with no cause and for no reason. Thats magic.
2. Our universe is the result of a multiverse, which exists without beginning. We cannot reach the present moment from eternity. Thats magic
3. The fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe was done by a multiverse. That would require 10^1500 universes to get a life-permitting universe. Thats magic.
4. The first self-replicating Cell was formed by random events. The odds to get a minimal set of 560 proteins, averaging 400 amino acids, but unguided events, is 10^378000. Thats magic.
5. The genetic code was formed by random-chance. Thats magic.
6. The gentic information stored in the first living cell emerged naturally. Thats magic.
7. The translation system from digital genetic information to the analog amino acid alphabet emerged randomly. Thats magic.
8. The assembly of raw products, molecules, molecular machines, production lines, and self replicating Cell factories occured gradually, randomly, over a long period of time. Thats magic.
9. The over 20 epigenetic codes and signalling languages required to produce biocomplexity and diversity emerged naturally. Thats magic.
10. Atoms, matter and ultimatively, brains, producing minds, consciousness, self awareness, thoughts, intelligence, sensations and free will: two essentially different properties. Thats magic.
11. Atoms, matter and ultimatively, brains, producing moral awareness, ought to be's. Thats magic.
While theists hear the claim that inferring God is a gaps argument in almost every debate, are atheists not themselves actually guilty of using it?
We don't know:
- if the universe is eternal, there might be multiverses ( Multiverses are baseless speculation )
- how the Big bang started, maybe virtual particles ( Virtual particles need a quantum vacuum. Where does that come from? )
- why the universe is finely tuned - maybe bubble universes ( thats a just so, made up attempt to explain fine-tuning )
- how life started, we don't know but science is working on it ( and the answer won't be a God ) science has shown that abiogenesis is impossible.
- how exactly evolution works to produce biodiversity, but its a theory, and there is consensus in science, therefore it must be true. ( natural selection de-volves the genome )
- how the brain can produce thoughts and conscience, but we don't know of a mind being able to exist outside the brain, therefore, monism must be true. ( afterlife experiences disprove monism )
What if i told you that.......
- Gods existence is necessary and obvious. But there is no evidence of his existence.
- A sound epistemological framework requires science, philosophy, and theology. But empiricism is enough.
- Bayesian inferences are enough to deduct God. But better to insist and ask for proofs of Gods existence aniway.
- The universe and life seem designed, but they are not.
- The universe had a beginning, but there was no cause.
- Something cannot come from nothing. But the universe did.
- The universe follows physical laws. But no lawgiver set them up.
- The universe is set up by mathematical principles. But no mathematician did implement them.
- The universe is finely tuned. But requires no fine-tuner.
- Gas clouds do not clump through gravity. But its possible.
- Life is observed to come from life. Science doesn't know how it started, but the answer is luck.
- Science has demonstrated that DNA contains a genetic code. but its just an allegory.
- Codes are known to be invented only by intelligence. But the genetic code emerged randomly.
- The genetic Code is the most robust amonst over a million alternative ones. That occurred by a freaky accident.
- Translation systems come from intelligence. But the translation of mRNA to amino acids was a frozen accident.
- Only intelligence builds machines and factories based on a blueprint. But the Cell emerged by unguided random events.
- Matter is not known to be able to produce consciousness, imagination and thought. But its possible aniway.
- Objective moral values exist. But moral values are are subjective and evolve.
- Preprogrammed information and signalling is required for organismal form. But macroevolution is fact nonetheless.
- There is plenty of evidence for an afterlife. But after death, there are only worms.
- There is plenty of evidence for things that cannot be sensed ( the mind ). But there is no evidence for it.
- We seem to have free will, but in reality, don't.
How does that make any sense ?!!
The extreme skepticism and incredulity towards one explanation of origins ( theism) must lead automatically to the extreme credulity and gullibility of the opposite explanation ( philosophical naturalism ). The cop-out of not knowing about origins is unjustified wilful and purposeful ignorance upon the overwhelming knowledge that the scientific advance and inquiry has permitted us to gain, and upon which we can understand the world and reality, how the cosmos and biology works, better than ever before. That permits us to make secure inferences about historical events. Playing Sherlock Holmes was never as easy as today. Agnosticism is not justified.
If proponents of naturalism want to convince that strong atheism or the philosophical view that naturalism explains our existence better than theism, they should provide positive convincing reasons, why theists do good to believe as follows:
About the universe, its beginning and fine-tuning:
1. The Universe popped up out of nothing or is eternal
2. The physical laws were always there, nothing set them up
3. The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power out of a lucky accident. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form (because electromagnetic forces would so overwhelm gravitational forces).
4. Quarks and anti-quarks form via matter-antimatter pair production. Because of their nature, these particles instantly annihilate each other. However, during the creation of the universe, a slight asymmetry in this pair production resulted in approximately 1 extra particle of matter for every 10 billion produced. It turns out that this 1 in 10 billion ratio of “leftover particles” happens to be the exact amount of mass necessary for the formation of stars, galaxies, and planets. As much as 2 in 10 billion, and the universe would have just been filled with black holes. As little as 0.5 in 10 billion, and there wouldn’t have been enough density for galaxies to form. This was a lucky accident.
5. Upon the finetuning by a happy accident of the cosmological constant, the probability that our universe contains galaxies is akin to exactly 10^123. That is 1 possibility in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 .
5. Stars and planets exist. That happened by clump of gas upon gravitational forces, despite never proven that it is possible.
6. The right distance of the sun from the galactic center, its right position in the spiral arm, size and force of gravity of planet earth, water, the right atmosphere, right amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, rare earth minerals which make life possible, right size of the sun, its right distance from earth, the ozone layer, fundamental for life, the earths right magnetic field which protects it from deadly rays from the sun, the right tilt of earth which permits the seasons providing a balancing effect, a large, right-sized moon that stabilizes the rotation axis of its host planet, yielding a more stable, life-friendly climate, tides made possible through the moon, life essential, all just happened by a lucky accident.
the origin of life:
7. The minimal number of proteins and a proteome, metabolome, and genome emerged through enough time and biochemical trials by a lucky accident.
- According to the latest estimation of a minimal protein set for the first living organism, the requirement would be about 560 proteins, this would be the absolute minimum to keep the basic functions of a cell alive.
- According to the Protein-length distributions for the three domains of life, there is an average between prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells of about 400 amino acids per protein. 8
- Each of the 400 positions in the amino acid polypeptide chains could be occupied by any one of the 20 amino acids used in cells, so if we suppose that proteins emerged randomly on prebiotic earth, then the total possible arrangements or odds to get one which would fold into a functional 3D protein would be 1 to 20^400 or 1 to 10^520. A truly enormous, super astronomical number.
- Since we need 560 proteins total to make a first living cell, we would have to repeat the shuffle 560 times, to get all proteins required for life. The probability would be therefore 560/10520. We arrive at a probability far beyond of 1 in 10^100.000 ( A proteome set with 239 proteins yields odds of approximately 1/10^119614 )
8. Cells are complex factories, full of molecular machines, and assembly lines. Randomness produced these factories, by orderly aggregation and sequentially correct manner without external direction.
9. Cells use various codes and hierarchical levels of information, based on complex hardware/information processing machines ( computers ). Unguided forces produced these blueprints....
10. Luck or random unguided chemical forces produced DNA with the highest information storage density physically possible.
11. Cells use metabolic pathways and literally manufacturing and production assembly lines. Saint luck did the feat.
12. Cells are self-replicating. DNA replication is irreducibly complex. The biochemical lottery hit the jackpot.
13. Cells have error detection and check mechanisms. Life could not have "taken off" without them. They just appeared to be there when needed.
14. Cells require homeostasis. It just happened.
Immaterial things:
16. There is consciousness. The brain somehow produced it to give a survival advantage.
17. There are objective moral values. Nobody created them.
18. Language, logic, reasoning, free will, and moral values are not grounded in physics. They just appeared through evolution, to give a survival advantage.
19. Evolution accounts for the origin of 116 distinct language families.
20. Independent thought emerged through Darwin's idea.
21. Matter produced free will.
Dear atheist, please let me know, why that should make sense to me. And why it makes sense to you. If you can, i might become incredulous towards the God hypothesis. As long as you can't, i prefer to remain incredulous in your eyes.
Last edited by Admin on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
