ElShamah Ministries: Defending the Christian Worldview and Creationism
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
ElShamah Ministries: Defending the Christian Worldview and Creationism

Otangelo Grasso: This is my personal virtual library, where i collect information, which leads in my view to the Christian faith, creationism, and Intelligent Design as the best explanation of the origin of the physical Universe, life, and biodiversity

Species and YEC

Message [Page 1 of 1]

Otangelo

Species and YEC

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t3000-species-and-yec

Using basic math we can prove YEC counting speciation rate times. Its really easy and observable, testable, and logical. Considering the last bottleneck occurred in evolution theory it was 200,000 years ago. For YEC it was just 4,300 +/- 150 years ago. So a huge contrast. Lets see which one shows the actual numbers seen in reality, shall we?

Now how an I prove YEC using math and birds? Easy!. Let's use science, logic, math, and reason to deduce the truth. How many bird species are alive today? Science tells us 9-10k different species.

Well, if science has shown that around 3.3 or more new bird species arise every single year. Then if you extrapolate that back 4,400+/- years to Noah's flood. What do you get? Numbers show YEC can account easily for over 15,000 bird species and even more depending on how many bird families (kinds) Noah brought on the ark. For example, if Noah had 80 different bird kinds on the Ark, then there should be somewhere between 18,000-20,000 BIRD species today, much more reasonable than the evolutionary rates. The numbers line up exactly with what is in line with Y.E.C. NOT EVOLUTION! (If a bottleneck occurred as they evolution says just 200,000 years ago, the numbers (IF reduced all the way down to a pair to benefit evolution theory) there should be = 660,000 Bird species on Earth today and FAR more than that if more survived. And yes I even located studies that looked at Closely related species of birds as well (Study & study).

But it gets better. How about Snakes?

Well, 3,600 snake species exist, how fast do they speciate? 1.2 a year on average study & study. What does this fall on going back to Noah's flood 4,350 years ago? Well If that rate was constant from Noah's flood and from just a single pair of snakes the number would be around just 5,220 snake species alive today, proving again YEC creation numbers are the valid ones, IF a bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be (IF reduced all the way down to 1 to benefit evolution theory) = 240,000 snake species

How about Bats? 1,240 species exist. How fast do bats speciate? Between 3 - 5 a year on average. Well again going back to just a few bats, you guessed it, right around Noah's flood. No where CLOSE to hundreds of thousands of years! Let alone millions! In 2018, 5 new bat species discovered; The 2 new dog-faced bats, the Yoda bat, and 2 yellow bats. Link & Link & Link (If the bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be = 800,000 bat species.

There are currently over 4,675 lizard species,  lizards speciate at an average of 1 new species a year. Again, YEC numbers that fall right around Noah's flood and it appears Noah brought just a few lizard varieties with him. (If the bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be = 200,000 lizard species.

Are all palms related to all other palms in the genus and how can you tell? Again, reproduction/grafting and leaf traits. All palm species still follow the general functional design between leaf traits for example. these leaf traits are all linked to the development of the entire palm family supported by PGLS analyses. So yes all palms related to all other palms in the genus. They, like animals speciated till they no longer can be crossed, like a pug and a wolf. There are now 4 separate kinds of palm, everything falls within those 4 types. The Arecaceae has 2600 species today the largest of all. In 2005 (Govaerts and Dransfield) discovered there were exactly 2364 species =

So in 14 years, 236 new species arose!
And that is the real question - How fast does a new species arise? That’s 16.8 new species in 14 years or  1.2 new species a year, take that back to Noah's flood and the numbers line up perfectly. Now take those numbers back millions of years though and you have a huge problem! The numbers would be off the charts!

Wolves and coyotes differ by about 7.5 percent. By our previous calculations, it would take about 750 to 1000 generations to achieve this divergence. With a generation time of a few years, this would imply a separation time of a few thousand years ago. Wolves differ from each other by about 2 percent in the control region (Study). This implies an origin about 200-300 generations ago. With a few years of generation time, this would be a thousand years or so ago. This low figure might be explained because the whole control region changes somewhat more slowly than the parts considered earlier. The same reference states that dogs also differ by about 2 percent, leading to a similar time of origin. Most dog species differ within themselves by about one percent, implying a more recent origin.

Seven species of diving ducks were studied in (Study). The control region divergence was less than 17 percent. This translates to 1700 - 2500 generations, which at a few years per generation is also in the several thousands of years range.

Between 1,500 and 2,000 species of brown algae are known worldwide. This is 1 new species every 2 years. Exactly what we see! As Algae has rapid speciation times when tested. But there is more, a lot more; For example, 55 species in the deer family are living today. Among the species with readily available genetic information, genetic comparisons show a linear pattern of speciation. On the basis of this result, a new deer species appears to have formed approximately every 80 years.

As another example, in the cat family, 37 species exist today. Based on genetics, they have been forming at a constant rate over the last 4,500 years. In other words, on average, one new cat species has arisen roughly every 120 years.

As a third example, the horse and donkey family (Equidae) contains seven species today. Again, based on genetics, these species have been forming at a constant rate over the last 4,500 years. In other words, on average, one new equid species has arisen approximately every 640 years.

In species-rich families, like rodent, new species form once every decade—or faster. Hence in the few hundred years between the Flood and Abraham, an abundance of species could form and still be consistent with the constant rate finding of genetics.

In practical terms, if the Flood ended 4350 years ago, a modest speciation rate of one speciation event every 200 years would produce about 21 species by today. Nearly three-fourths of all mammal families had 21 species or less. Conversely, just 27% of the mammal families contained 86% of all mammal species. These results suggested that speciation was explosive for just a few mammal kinds.

Resources
http://www.iucnredlist.org/
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13739?WT.feed_name=subjects_speciation
https://www.iucn.org/content/american-bison-status-survey-and-conservation-guidelines-2010

Next plants! = There are 70 species of sunflowers. Well how fast do wild sunflowers speciate? read ;Rapid hybrid speciation in wild sunflowers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC21713/
it was discovered that  homoploid and polyploid hybrid plants
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9751738
1 new species formed in under 60 generations and another study found

2 new in under 80 years. This gives an average time of 1 new hybridization event 40 years. So 70 species x 40 years = 2,800 years. Totally enough time on a YEC timeline. According to evolution however, there should be 8,000,000 or so species.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15654116

So regarding homoploid hybrid speciation Yakimowski and Rieseberg (2014) list 19 putative cases of hybrid speciation among seed plants, two of them in general in which more than one species is of hybrid origin.
Now, look at this! Old world plants had larger genome sizes! Exactly what we would expect if creation were true and things are losing information, not gaining any. Proving all taxa today is less genetically diverse or large than plants in the past would have been!

Floristic surveys indicate that ∼10% of plant species hybridize 1 Plant speciation events work through hybridization and hybridization occurs by not allowing the new inherited hybrid no whole-genome duplication and thus no increase in ploidy.

Is there any real time evidence that just a single pair of anything can repopulate the land? YES LOTS!
In 1957 a single pair of Mouflon sheep were left on one of the Kerguelen islands near the Antarctic circle. In 1977 when they had returned, the number had grown to 700 sheep! That's just 20 years stuck on a small island and male sheep are nomadic travelers by nature, so the conditions were not even suitable for them! Given that the population began with only two individuals, has experienced cyclical changes in the population size, and was isolated on an island, the researchers because of their belief in Evolution prediction this would not have occurred, and went against the odds. However, this is just 1 of many examples of their utter failure to grasp basic logic when confronted with real-world outcomes.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070620154911.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1766376/

Next example; = Only 4 white-tailed deer were introduced in Finland in 1934 from North America. Their numbers rapidly increased and the species is now one of the main wildlife species hunted in Finland. The population is completely isolated from North American, so testing their diversity on the new isolated place was easy. In 2012 they were found to have populated so much that they are now the leading species in Finland. All from just 4 individuals. So it's obvious and clear that a small population can produce the huge diversity and populations we see in the world today. As opposed to the critics who say that it's impossible.
ttps://www.utu.fi/en/units/sci/units/biology/research/projects/verg/Pages/Blog08042016.aspx

Next example; = Three more studies indicating that when small numbers were observed for an animal population on the verge of extinction, they were able to populate and spread much faster than expected. Contrary to evolutionary predictions which expected the opposite results (that low population numbers cannot recover to repopulate). The study involving mouflon sheep, Przewalski’s horses, bacteria and gray whales in which the initial populations were known, researchers discovered many new generations after the initial populations were established that were far exceeding the numbers of any model they had. Their huge population growth was much greater than expected—again, based on the models relating to population size. In other words, their assumption method failed validation in each of these cases.
Rapid species extinction is only a recent problem because the Impact of Human Actions‎ have affected them. So the numbers which slow a decline recently have no bearing on the numbers above which span for thousands of years and not just a few decades.

Let me explain better; Animals fitting on the Ark & Horse Kind Variation.

Regarding Noah's Ark where Typical Skeptics say it can't possibly be true because you cannot possibly fit the 1.6 million species on the Ark. Of course, the answer to that is “Noah Didn't have to fit the 1.6 million species on the Ark”. 1:) He is not putting Whales on the Ark it's a Flood whale live in water. No. 2 he is not going to fit all the Arthropods Spiders insects So Forth, they could survive on Floating things also Maggots can live in Aquatic environments like in Sewers if a Maggot has unlimited food and moisture it will just keep growing and will never transform or morph into a fly, He is just bringing the land Creatures Air Breathing Creatures on the Ark, All creatures that have the Breath of life in their Nostrils, which is Basically Mammals Reptiles Amphibians & Birds.

The Scriptures don't speak of Species, some Modern-day English Translations, unfortunately, use that term, Species is a modern term thanks to Carl Linnaeus a Swedish Botanist from the 1700's. The Hebrew Bible speaks of Kinds, We translate the The Hebrew Word min as Kind or the Hebrew word baramin meaning Created Kinds, so God Creates Creatures in Genesis 1 according to their min (Pronounced Mean) or According to their Kinds, Noah was Commanded to take creatures on the Ark according to their min or Kinds & if you look at what Kinds are Noah was Commanded to take Male and Female of each Kind on the Ark For the Purpose of Preserving their Seed their offspring. That implies if we can inter-breed certain species even if they are Separate species they are probably from the Same Kind, applying that criterion to the animal world there is a general rule that has emerged there are species that can still produce live offspring today as a general rule the kind is not a Species the kind is not even a Genius that's the next level up of classification, so for example the Red Fox and Arctic Fox are not only a separate species they are each placed in their own Genus, that's not the level of Kind either, Rather the Family Level, So using the Fox example Foxes Coyote's Wolves Dogs Dingo's all belong to the Same Family the Family is Canidae & it's the Family Level of classification that is Likely what the best approximation of what the Biblical Kind is, so if you then ask the Question how many kinds or how many Families did Noah have to bring on the Ark, living and Extinct you only come up with about less than 2000 Kinds the Ark has plenty of room for these Creatures, as it was 530 feet long 50 feet wide and 3 stories high, then of course that raises the Question you have families aboard the Ark. Let's see but there is now 30 plus species of dogs & hundreds of Breeds in the dog family that means you have a whole bunch of Breeds and Species from that pare originally on board the Ark, in just a few thousand years that's impossible right? That's more evolution than Darwin proposed, That is sometimes how they will state their Argument against the Scripture.

So what's the answer to that? One of the Answers stems from Something Darwin himself said, one of his arguments for Evolution that's sort of been lost in the modern discussion comes from the opening chapters of his book in the Origin of Species in 1859 he was trying to Argue against an archaic outdated unbiblical view of the origin of species the older view back then was that God Created species Not Kinds, which is not Biblically justified so he was trying to Argue against species being fixed not changing, one of the Arguments he gave in 1859 was a comparison like this, he said let's compare the amount of variety we see in the wild then compare it to the variety we see on Farms, so we can use a modern version of this, if you look at the Horses, Donkey, and Zebra. In that, there are 3 species of Zebra today one species of wild Horse Przewalski's horse, Wild Asses 2 in Asia 1 in Africa, 7 species in total, but there are over 850 breeds of Horses & Donkeys in existence today.

So Darwin said and challenged his contemporary Creationists who thought God Created species they were wrong, he said okay let's think about this logically, where did all the breeds come from. so we could say today,, where did the 850 breeds of horse come from, well there is only one answer we can give because we humans were responsible for producing them, we'll take say a long-haired black coat colored horse and mate it with a short-haired red coat colored horse and try to produce a long-haired red coat colored horse that sort of thing. That's what we have been doing for hundreds of years say for millennia to produce the breeds we want, the answer to Darwin's rhetorical question is Well of course all these 850 breeds come from a common ancestor because we humans were the ones doing this, so then Darwin once he has established that in the minds of his Readers that breeds have a common ancestry he turns around and says yeah okay then why would you say Species don't have a common ancestor, so there is Greater amount of variety and if you look at the Amount of Variety that exists in breeds it's Stupendous, all that variety comes from a common ancestor why would you turn around and say that the lesser amount of variety Zebras Horses Donkeys in the wild why would you say those don't have a common ancestor, and that's a pretty good argument it has its limits because you can't really tie Rhinos or Tapirs into this equation they're their closest living relatives according to the Evolutionists of the Horses and such, all the amount of variety in horse breeds doesn't bridge the Gap between horses and Rhinos it's a really good argument that sets up this idea of Biblical Kinds, so the Question is a question of time.

How could you get 7 species of Horses Donkeys Zebras from a pair of Equids aboard the Ark in just a few thousand years, and this is where we can take Darwin's Argument to its logical conclusion, he didn't discuss the Question of time he just assumed millions of years in his arguments, let's do it now let's take it to its logical conclusion, so I am going to make an argument within the evolutionary framework use the Evolutionists own statements against them to show we can get many Breeds and Species in just a few thousand years, so if you ask the Evolutionists today about the 7 living Equid species 3 wild Zebra species 3 wild Ass species and 1 wild Horse species how long did it take in Evolutionary terms for these species to Arise? And the literature will tell you about 4 million years, so 7 species in 4 million years, how could they arise in just a few thousand years it's ridiculous to say they could Speciate in just a few thousand years, so this is where I would stop them and say hold on tell me, evolutionists, how long did it take for the 700 Breeds to Arise, so you think for a minute do the math, 7 species in the wild about 700+ of man-made breeds that's a 7 fold plus difference 4 million years for the 7 wild breeds to arise well so that would be according to Evolutionist timelines about 400 million years for that 700+ breeds to Arise, but that's not the answer you will find in the literature, the Evolutionists themselves say these 700+man made breeds arose not over 400 million years but in just 12 thousand years so think of that there are 700+ Breeds in just a few thousand years. 7 species in 4 million years, Those numbers don't make any sense.

Using Darwin's own logic you would have to say that even within an evolutionary framework if 700+ breeds can arise in just a few thousand years so Surely 7 species can arise in just thousands not millions of years, so from Darwin's own pen we can make an Argument showing the plausibility of 7 species in a few thousand years, of course, I don't agree with the 12 thousand years evolutionist narrative for the 700+ breeds, That was just to show that the Evolutionists cannot make a consistent argument against the young Earth model, it's just a few thousand years 45 hundred or so. Looking at what's been done on the farm immediately makes it more Plausible.
Genetically it goes back to this idea of Big. A. little. a. Big. B. little. b. If the animals or the kinds were Created genetically homogeneous with no variety in their DNA all capital letters or all lowercase letters then Yeah, it's pretty hard to make Species or Create species in just a few thousand years from that. However if God Created these kinds with Capital, A, lowercase, a, Capital, B, lowercase, b, and you do that for the millions of DNA positions that exist you can exhaust all the letters of the English Alphabet and much much more, That means they have the ability to produce all sorts of variety in just a single generation, we now have multiple lines of evidence indicating that this was indeed the case, this is how God Created the Kinds in the Beginning.

So they have the potential within themselves to form all sorts of species in an evolutionary Heartbeat, the reason the Evolutionists have not come to this conclusion is that they reject from the outset that there could have been front-loaded genetic Variety, they say Nope everything must be the Result of Genetic mistakes (Mutations) Link this precludes them from even considering there was front-loaded genetic Variety from the Start, so they have missed this incredible explanation of how so many Species can Arise in Just a Few thousand years. But we can see the Echo of it in the Breeds that have formed, not by enlarge of Farmers going in and mutating the DNA of Horses. They are just taking the variety that already exists in their genetics and simply reshuffling it.

Otangelo

Using basic math we can prove YEC counting speciation rate times. Its really easy and observable, testable and logical. Considering the last bottleneck occured in evolution theory it was 200,000 years ago. For YEC it was just 4,300 +/- 150 years ago. So a huge contrast. Lets see which one shows the actual numbers seen in reality shall we?

Now how an I prove YEC using math and birds? Easy!. Let's use science, logic, math and reason to deduce the truth. How many bird species are alive today? Science tells us 9-10k different species.
Well, if science has shown that around 3.3 or more new bird species arise every single year. Then if you extrapolate that back 4,400+/- years to Noah's flood. What do you get? Numbers show YEC can account easily for over 15,000 bird species and even more depending on how many bird families (kinds) Noah brought on the ark. For example, if Noah had 80 different bird kinds on the Ark, then there should be somewhere between 18,000-20,000 BIRD species today, much more reasonable than the evolutionary rates. The numbers line up exactly with what is in line with Y.E.C. NOT EVOLUTION! (If a bottleneck occurred as they evolution says just 200,000 years ago, the numbers (IF reduced all the way down to a pair to benefit evolution theory) there should be = 660,000 Bird species on Earth today and FAR more than that if more survived. And yes I even located studies that looked at Closely related species of birds as well (Study & study).

But it gets better. How about Snakes?
Well 3,600 snake species exist, how fast do they speciate? 1.2 a year on average study & study. What does this fall on going back to Noah's flood 4,350 years ago? Well If that rate was constant from Noah's flood and from just a single pair of snakes the number would be around just 5,220 snake species alive today, proving again YEC creation numbers are the valid ones, IF a bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be (IF reduced all the way down to 1 to benefit evolution theory) = 240,000 snake species

How about Bats? 1,240 species exist. How fast do bats speciate? Between 3 - 5 a year on average. Well again going back to just a few bats, you guessed it, right around Noah's flood. No where CLOSE to hundreds of thousands of years! Let alone millions! In 2018, 5 new bat species discovered; The 2 new dog-faced bats, the Yoda bat, and 2 yellow bats. Link & Link & Link (If the bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be = 800,000 bat species.

There are currently over 4,675 lizard species, lizards speciate at an average of 1 new species a year. Again, YEC numbers that fall right around Noah's flood and it appears Noah brought just a few lizard varieties with him. (If the bottleneck occurred as they say just 200,000 years ago, the numbers should be = 200,000 lizard species.

Are all palms related to all other palms in the genus and how can you tell? Again, reproduction/grafting and leaf traits. All palm species still follow the general functional design between leaf traits for example. these leaf traits are all linked to the development of the entire palm family supported by PGLS analyses. So yes all palms related to all other palms in the genus. They, like animals speciated till they no longer can be crossed, like a pug and a wolf. There are now 4 separate kinds of palm, everything falls within those 4 types. The Arecaceae has 2600 species today the largest of all. In 2005 (Govaerts and Dransfield) discovered there were exactly 2364 species =.
So in 14 years, 236 new species arose!
And that is the real question - How fast does a new species arise? That’s 16.8 new species in 14 years or  1.2 new species a year, take that back to Noah's flood and the numbers line up perfectly. Now take those numbers back millions of years though and you have a huge problem! The numbers would be off the charts!

Wolves and coyotes differ by about 7.5 percent. (Study & Study) By our previous calculations, it would take about 750 to 1000 generations to achieve this divergence. With a generation time of a few years, this would imply a separation time of a few thousand years ago. Wolves differ from each other by about 2 percent in the control region (Study). This implies an origin about 200-300 generations ago. With a few years of generation time, this would be a thousand years or so ago. This low figure might be explained because the whole control region changes somewhat more slowly than the parts considered earlier. The same reference states that dogs also differ by about 2 percent, leading to a similar time of origin. Most dog species differ within themselves by about one percent, implying a more recent origin.

Seven species of diving ducks were studied in (Study). The control region divergence was less than 17 percent. This translates to 1700 - 2500 generations, which at a few years per generation is also in the several thousands of years range.

Between 1,500 and 2,000 species of brown algae are known worldwide. This is 1 new species every 2 years. Exactly what we see! As Algae has rapid speciation times when tested.
study

But there is more, a lot more; For example, 55 species in the deer family are living today. Among the species with readily available genetic information, genetic comparisons show a linear pattern of speciation. On the basis of this result, a new deer species appears to have formed approximately every 80 years.
Study
As another example, in the cat family, 37 species exist today. Based on genetics, they have been forming at a constant rate over the last 4,500 years. In other words, on average, one new cat species has arisen roughly every 120 years.
Study
As a third example, the horse and donkey family (Equidae) contains seven species today. Again, based on genetics, these species have been forming at a constant rate over the last 4,500 years. In other words, on average, one new equid species has arisen approximately every 640 years.

In species-rich families, like rodent, new species form once every decade—or faster. Hence in the few hundred years between the Flood and Abraham, an abundance of species could form and still be consistent with the constant rate finding of genetics.

In practical terms, if the Flood ended 4350 years ago, a modest speciation rate of one speciation event every 200 years would produce about 21 species by today. Nearly three-fourths of all mammal families had 21 species or less. Conversely, just 27% of the mammal families contained 86% of all mammal species. These results suggested that speciation was explosive for just a few mammal kinds.
Resources; http://www.iucnredlist.org/
*https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13739?WT.feed_name=subjects_speciation
*https://www.iucn.org/content/american-bison-status-survey-and-conservation-guidelines-2010

Next plants! = There are 70 species of sunflowers. Well how fast do wild sunflowers speciate? read ;Rapid hybrid speciation in wild sunflowers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC21713/ it was discovered that  homoploid and polyploid hybrid plants https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9751738 1 new species formed in under 60 generations and another study found
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15654116 2 new in under 80 years. This gives an average time of 1 new hybridization event 40 years. So 70 species x 40 years = 2,800 years. Totally enough time on a YEC timeline. According to evolution however, there should be 8,000,000 or so species.

So regarding homoploid hybrid speciation Yakimowski and Rieseberg (2014) list 19 putative cases of hybrid speciation among seed plants, two of them in general in which more than one species is of hybrid origin.

Now, look at this! Old world plants had larger genome sizes! Exactly what we would expect if creation were true and things are losing information, not gaining any. Proving all taxa today is less genetically diverse or large than plants in the past would have been!

Floristic surveys indicate that ∼10% of plant species hybridize 1 Plant speciation events work through hybridization and hybridization occurs by not allowing the new inherited hybrid no whole-genome duplication and thus no increase in ploidy.

Is there any real time evidence that just a single pair of anything can repopulate the land? YES LOTS!
In 1957 a single pair of Mouflon sheep were left on one of the Kerguelen islands near the Antarctic circle. In 1977 when they had returned, the number had grown to 700 sheep! That's just 20 years stuck on a small island and male sheep are nomadic travelers by nature, so the conditions were not even suitable for them! Given that the population began with only two individuals, has experienced cyclical changes in the population size, and was isolated on an island, the researchers because of their belief in Evolution prediction this would not have occurred, and went against the odds. However, this is just 1 of many examples of their utter failure to grasp basic logic when confronted with real-world outcomes.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070620154911.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1766376/
Next example; = Only 4 white-tailed deer were introduced in Finland in 1934 from North America. Their numbers rapidly increased and the species is now one of the main wildlife species hunted in Finland. The population is completely isolated from North American, so testing their diversity on the new isolated place was easy. In 2012 they were found to have populated so much that they are now the leading species in Finland. All from just 4 individuals. So it's obvious and clear that a small population can produce the huge diversity and populations we see in the world today. As opposed to the critics who say that it's impossible.
https://www.utu.fi/en/units/sci/units/biology/research/projects/verg/Pages/Blog08042016.aspx

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234839629_Genetic_diversity_and_structure_among_subspecies_of_white-tailed_deer_in_Mexico
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0043482

Next example; = Three more studies indicating that when small numbers were observed for an animal population on the verge of extinction, they were able to populate and spread much faster than expected. Contrary to evolutionary predictions which expected the opposite results (that low population numbers cannot recover to repopulate). The study involving mouflon sheep, Przewalski’s horses, bacteria and gray whales in which the initial populations were known, researchers discovered many new generations after the initial populations were established that were far exceeding the numbers of any model they had. Their huge population growth was much greater than expected—again, based on the models relating to population size. In other words, their assumption method failed validation in each of these cases.
Rapid species extinction is only a recent problem because the Impact of Human Actions‎ have affected them. So the numbers which slow a decline recently have no bearing on the numbers above which span for thousands of years and not just a few decades.

Let me explain better; Animals fitting on the Ark & Horse Kind Variation.

Regarding Noah's Ark where Typical Skeptics say it can't possibly be true because you cannot possibly fit the 1.6 million species on the Ark. Of course the answer to that is “Noah Didn't have to fit the 1.6 million species on the Ark”. 1:) He is not putting Whales on the Ark it's a Flood whales live in water. No. 2 he is not going to fit all the Arthropods Spiders insects So Forth, they could survive on Floating things also Maggots can live in Aquatic environments like in Sewers if a Maggot has unlimited food and moisture it will just keep growing and will never transform or morph into a fly, He is just bringing the land Creatures Air Breathing Creatures on the Ark, All creatures that have the Breath of life in their Nostrils, which is Basically Mammals Reptiles Amphibians & Birds.
The Scriptures don't speak of Species, some Modern-day English Translations unfortunately use that term, Species is a modern term thanks to Carl Linnaeus a Swedish Botanist from the 1700's. The Hebrew Bible speaks of Kinds, We translate the The Hebrew Word min as Kind or the Hebrew word baramin meaning Created Kinds, so God Creates Creatures in Genesis 1 according to their min (Pronounced Mean) or According to their Kinds, Noah was Commanded to take creatures on the Ark according to their min or Kinds & if you look at what Kinds are Noah was Commanded to take Male and Female of each Kind on the Ark For the Purpose of Preserving their Seed their offspring. That implies if we can inter-breed certain species even if they are Separate species they are probably from the Same Kind, applying that criterion to the animal world there is a general rule that has emerged there are species that can still produce live offspring today as a general rule the kind is not a Species the kind is not even a Genius that's the next level up of classification, so for example the Red Fox and Arctic Fox are not only a separate species they are each placed in their own Genus, that's not the level of Kind either, Rather the Family Level, So using the Fox example Foxes Coyote's Wolves Dogs Dingo's all belong to the Same Family the Family is Canidae & it's the Family Level of classification that is Likely what the best approximation of what the Biblical Kind is, so if you then ask the Question how many kinds or how many Families did Noah have to bring on the Ark, living and Extinct you only come up with about less than 2000 Kinds the Ark has plenty of room for these Creatures, as it was 530 feet long 50 feet wide and 3 stories high, then of course that raises the Question you have families aboard the Ark. Let's see but there is now 30 plus species of dogs & hundreds of Breeds in the dog family that means you have a hole bunch of Breeds and Species from that pare originally onboard the Ark, in just a few thousand years that's impossible Right? That's more evolution than Darwin proposed, That is sometimes how they will state their Argument against the Scripture.
So what's the answer to that? One of the Answers stems from Something Darwin himself said, one of his arguments for Evolution that's sort of been lost in the modern discussion comes from the opening chapters of his book in the Origin of Species in 1859 he was trying to Argue against an archaic outdated unbiblical view of the origin of species the older view back then was that God Created species Not Kinds, which is not Biblically justified so he was trying to Argue against species being fixed not changing, one of the Arguments he gave in 1859 was a comparison like this, he said let's compare the amount of variety we see in the wild then compare it to the variety we see on Farms, so we can use a modern version of this, if you look at the Horses, Donkey, and Zebra. In that there are 3 species of Zebra today one species of wild Horse Przewalski's horse, Wild Asses 2 in Asia 1 in Africa, 7 species in total, but there are over 850 breeds of Horses & Donkeys in existence today.
So Darwin said and challenged his contemporary Creationists who thought God Created species they were wrong, he said okay let's think about this logically, where did all the breeds come from. so we could say today,, where did the 850 breeds of horse come from, well there is only one answer we can give because we humans were responsible for producing them, we'll take say a long haired black coat colored horse and mate it with a short haired red coat colored horse and try to produce a long haired red coat colored horse that sort of thing. That's what we have been doing for hundreds of years say for millennia to produce the breeds we want, the answer to Darwin's rhetorical question is Well of course all these 850 breeds come from a common ancestor because we humans were the ones doing this, so then Darwin once he has established that in the minds of his Readers that breeds have a common ancestry he turns around and says yeah okay then why would you say Species don't have a common ancestor, so there is Greater amount of variety and if you look at the Amount of Variety that exists in breeds it's Stupendous, all that variety comes from a common ancestor why would you turn around and say that the lesser amount of variety Zebras Horses Donkeys in the wild why would you say those don't have a common ancestor, and that's a pretty good argument it has its limits because you can't really tie Rhinos or Tapirs into this equation they're their closest living relatives according to the Evolutionists of the Horses and such, all the amount of variety in horse breeds doesn't bridge the Gap between horses and Rhinos it's a really good argument that sets up this idea of Biblical Kinds, so the Question is a question of time.
How could you get 7 species of Horses Donkeys Zebras from a pair of Equids aboard the Ark in just a few thousand years, and this is where we can take Darwin's Argument to its logical conclusion, he didn't discuss the Question of time he just assumed millions of years in his arguments, let's do it now let's take it to its logical conclusion, so I am going to make an argument within the evolutionary framework use the Evolutionists own statements against them to show we can get many Breeds and Species in just a few thousand years, so if you ask the Evolutionists today about the 7 living Equid species 3 wild Zebra species 3 wild Ass species and 1 wild Horse species how long did it take in Evolutionary terms for these species to Arise? And the literature will tell you about 4 million years, so 7 species in 4 million years, how could they arise in just a few thousand years it's ridiculous to say they could Speciate in just a few thousand years, so this is where I would stop them and say hold on tell me evolutionists how long did it take for the 700 Breeds to Arise, so you think for a minute do the math, 7 species in the wild about 700+ of man made breeds that's a 7 fold plus difference 4 million years for the 7 wild breeds to arise well so that would be according to Evolutionist timelines about 400 million years for that 700+ breeds to Arise, but that's not the answer you will find in the literature, the Evolutionists themselves say these 700+ man made breeds arose not over 400 million years but in just 12 thousand years so think of that there's 700+ Breeds in just a few thousand years. 7 species in 4 million years, Those numbers don't make any sense.
Using Darwin's own logic you would have to say that even within an evolutionary framework if 700+ breeds can arise in just a few thousand years so Surely 7 species can arise in just thousands not millions of years, so from Darwin's own pen we can make an Argument showing the plausibility of 7 species in a few thousand years of course I don't agree with the 12 thousand years evolutionist narrative for the 700+ breeds, That was just to show that the Evolutionists cannot make a consistent argument against the young Earth model, it's just a few thousand years 45 hundred or so. Looking at what's been done on the farm immediately makes it more Plausible.
Genetically it goes back to this idea of Big. A. little. a. Big. B. little. b. If the animals or the kinds were Created genetically homogeneous with no variety in their DNA all capital letters or all lowercase letters then Yeah, it's pretty hard to make Species or Create species in just a few thousand years from that. However if God Created these kinds with Capital, A, lowercase, a, Capital, B, lowercase, b, and you do that for the millions of DNA positions that exist you can exhaust all the letters of the English Alphabet and much much more, That means they have the Ability to produce all sorts of variety in just a Single generation, we now have multiple lines of evidence indicating that this was indeed the case, this is how God Created the Kinds in the Beginning.
So they have the potential within themselves to form all sorts of species in an evolutionary Heartbeat, the reason the Evolutionists have not come to this conclusion is because they reject from the outset that there could have been front loaded genetic Variety, they say Nope everything must be the Result of Genetic mistakes (Mutations) Link this precludes them from even considering there was front loaded genetic Variety from the Start, so they have missed this incredible explanation of how so many Species can Arise in Just a Few thousand years. But we can see the Echo of it in the Breeds that have formed, not by enlarge of Farmers going in and mutating the DNA of Horses. They are just taking the variety that already exists in their genetics and simply reshuffling it.

Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum