Evil: Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
Claim: If GOD created all that exists, he is not good. Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Reply: The term "evil" in Hebrew can refer to calamities, sufferings, or judgments, not moral evil or sin. God, as sovereign over all things, allows and uses difficult events for greater purposes, such as discipline, correction, or righteous judgment. The immediate context of Isaiah 45 highlights God's sovereign power over the nations, highlighting that He is in control, even when He allows trials. The Bible emphasizes that God is good, just, and holy in His essence, and that moral evil is a corruption of His good creation, not something He directly created. God's greatest purpose is redemptive, aiming to restore humanity and create new heavens and a new earth, free from suffering and evil. Therefore, a careful interpretation of this passage, in light of all biblical teaching, points to God's sovereignty over difficult circumstances, and does not suggest that He is directly the author of moral evil or sin.
There is a story commonly known as "Einstein's Box" or "Einstein and the Professor." While it is often attributed to Albert Einstein, there is no concrete evidence that he was the author of this story. Nevertheless, it has been widely circulated as a thought-provoking anecdote. Here is a version of the story:
In this story, a university professor challenges one of his students, who happens to be a devout believer in God. The professor begins by stating, "God created everything that exists, correct?" The student affirms this statement.
The professor then asks, "If God created everything, then God created evil, right?" The student hesitates but eventually agrees. The professor continues, "Is God good?" The student responds with an unequivocal "Yes." The professor, aiming to corner the student in a logical contradiction, asks, "If God created evil and God is good, then how can you explain the existence of evil?" At this point, the student remains silent, seemingly unable to provide a satisfactory answer. The professor smugly concludes that the student's faith is baseless and that God must, therefore, be evil. However, the student raises his hand and poses a question in return: "Professor, does cold exist?" The professor responds, "Of course, it does. Haven't you ever felt cold?" The student then asks, "Is there such a thing as darkness?" The professor again replies, "Yes, there is darkness. We can see it in the absence of light." The student continues, "You're right, Professor. Darkness does exist. In fact, it is the absence of light. Similarly, cold is the absence of heat. Now, Professor, does evil exist?" The professor hesitates and remains silent. The student concludes, "Evil is not a thing or a substance that is created by God. It is like darkness and cold, a term that we use to describe the absence of God's love in the hearts of individuals. It is the absence of goodness, compassion, and righteousness." While this story presents an interesting perspective on the nature of evil, it is important to note that it is a fictional anecdote rather than an actual account involving Albert Einstein. Its purpose is to offer a philosophical response to the problem of evil rather than being a historical event.
Claim: God put the wellbeing of people living in rich nations ahead of all those kids in Africa, and the ones that will die of bone cancer in the coming year.
Response: The presence of suffering and inequality in the world is explained from a biblical perspective by the notion of a fallen world. The Christian scriptures teach that the world is not in the state that God originally created. Human sin has resulted in a fracture, not only in the relationship between God and humanity but also within the creation itself, leading to suffering, injustice, and natural disasters. The Bible also shows a God who is intimately concerned with the suffering of His creation, exemplified in the person of Jesus Christ, who, according to Christian belief, entered into the suffering of the world, ultimately experiencing it Himself through the crucifixion. This act is seen as a demonstration of God's solidarity with human suffering and His commitment to ultimately redeem and restore the creation. Furthermore, scripture encourages us to act justly and to care for those who are suffering. The books of the Prophets in the Old Testament, such as Isaiah and Micah, emphasize the importance of justice and mercy. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks of caring for the "least of these" (Matthew 25:40) as being equivalent to caring for Him. The epistles further call to practical action in alleviating suffering, following the example of Christ's sacrificial love. The biblical narrative does not promise an end to all suffering on this side of the world but instead offers hope for redemption and restoration in the life to come. It also provides a mandate to work towards justice and to ease suffering in the present world, trusting that our actions are part of a larger divine plan that is moving towards a restored and perfect creation.
The question of why a loving God would allow suffering, particularly the suffering of children, is one of the most heart-wrenching and complex issues we face. God does not mete out suffering to children as a form of punishment for the sins of others. Rather, the presence of suffering in the world is a consequence of living in a fallen state, where both human free will and natural laws operate. In this context, suffering is not indicative of God's absence or indifference but rather a result of the brokenness of the world. This brokenness is a result of human actions and choices. The concept of free will is crucial here; it allows for genuine love and moral choices but also opens the possibility for evil and suffering. Moreover, God empathizes deeply with human suffering. This is most profoundly illustrated in the life and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus' suffering and crucifixion are the ultimate expression of God's solidarity with human pain and suffering. Through Jesus, God experienced human suffering firsthand and thus is intimately acquainted with the pain and grief we endure. This perspective does not fully explain or alleviate the pain of suffering, especially when it comes to children. However, it does offer a framework where suffering is not as a divine punishment but as part of the complex reality of a world that includes human freedom and its far-reaching consequences. Additionally, the Christian faith emphasizes the role of humans in responding to suffering. The teachings of Jesus, particularly about caring for the "least of these," are a directive to actively engage in alleviating pain and addressing injustice. This is not merely a suggestion but a moral imperative, reflecting the care and compassion that is central to God's character. While the presence of suffering, particularly among the most vulnerable like children, remains a profound mystery and a source of deep anguish, it is not a simple equation of divine punishment. Instead, it is a call to compassionate action and an invitation to trust in a God who is deeply involved in the human experience, including its most painful aspects.
Claim: If God did exist and still chose that path, he’s not worthy of worship.
Response: In addressing the concern that if God exists and yet allows suffering, He is not worthy of worship, it's important to consider a few key points. The nature of God is being inherently good and loving. The existence of suffering is not a reflection of God's character but rather as a consequence of human free will and the resulting brokenness of the world. God's decision to grant free will is an expression of His desire for a genuine relationship with humans, one based on love and choice rather than coercion. The concept of God suffering alongside humanity is central. The life and death of Jesus Christ are the ultimate demonstration of God's empathy and involvement in human suffering. This aspect of God participating in human pain is evidence of His deep concern for and connection with the plight of His creation. The idea of worshipping God is intertwined with the belief in His ultimate justice and goodness. God will one day right all wrongs and there will be a restoration and healing of all creation. This hope does not erase the pain of current suffering but provides a context in which it can be understood as part of a larger, divine story that is moving towards a restored and perfected state. The call to worship is a response to God's character—His love, mercy, justice, and righteousness—rather than a reaction to the immediate circumstances of life. Worship is not just about acknowledging God's power but also trusting in His ultimate goodness and faithfulness, even in the face of life's most challenging experiences. While the existence of suffering poses significant questions about the nature of God, it does not negate His worthiness of worship. Instead, it calls us to a deeper understanding of God's nature, His involvement in the world, and the hope for ultimate restoration and justice.
Claim: If God possessed foreknowledge from eternity that, by creating a world with free will, the majority of people would reject Him and ultimately end up in hell, yet proceeded to create it anyway, then such a God would be considered malevolent—a deity with whom I would want no association.
Response: It's important to consider the relationship between God's omniscience, human free will, and the concept of evil. While it's true that God, being all-knowing, would foresee the choices individuals would make, including the possibility of rejecting Him, it doesn't follow that God's foreknowledge dictates or compels those choices. Instead, God grants humans the gift of free will, allowing them to make genuine choices, even if He knows in advance what those choices will be. This free will is a fundamental aspect of human nature and is essential for genuine relationships and moral responsibility. Moreover, from the standpoint of divine wisdom and purpose, it's plausible to consider that God permits the existence of evil and suffering as part of a greater plan that includes the possibility of redemption and the pursuit of higher goods, such as moral growth, compassion, and solidarity. Furthermore, the notion of God being evil for allowing individuals to choose their own paths misunderstands the nature of love. True love necessitates freedom—the freedom to choose to love or reject God. Forcing individuals to love God would undermine the authenticity and sincerity of their relationship with Him. In essence, while the existence of evil and suffering may pose philosophical challenges, from an apologist's perspective, it's essential to trust in God's wisdom and goodness, recognizing that He works all things together for the ultimate good of humanity, even amidst the complexities of free will and moral decision-making.
Additionally, the concept of hell is not solely about punishment, but also about justice and the consequences of rejecting God's offer of salvation. While God desires all to be saved, He respects the dignity and autonomy of individuals to accept or reject His love. Hell, therefore, is a consequence of human choice rather than a vindictive act of God. Moreover, from a divine perspective, the existence of free will and the potential for redemption and reconciliation are essential components of God's plan for humanity. In His infinite wisdom, God saw a greater purpose in allowing individuals to experience the consequences of their choices, even if it involves temporary suffering. Ultimately, while the question of why God would create a world where some may reject Him and face eternal separation is profound,, it's essential to trust in God's sovereignty, wisdom, and perfect love, even when faced with the mystery of human suffering and divine justice.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
Claim: Why does God permit innocent children to die because of disease, natural catastrophes etc?
Response: The question of why God allows innocent suffering, especially of children, is one of the most difficult and profound issues in theology and philosophy, known as the problem of evil or theodicy. While there are no easy answers, renowned scholars like Alvin Plantinga have offered thoughtful perspectives: Plantinga argues that the existence of evil and suffering does not necessarily contradict the existence of an all-powerful, all-good God. He proposes that evil and suffering result from the way the world is metaphysically configured - with free will, natural laws, and the potential for disorder and imperfection. An all-good God may have very good reasons, beyond our comprehension, for creating a world with such potential for evil, rather than a bland, automaton-like world without genuine freedom. Additionally, our perception of evil and suffering may be limited. What appears evil to us could serve a greater good from God's transcendent, eternal perspective. The suffering of a child, while terrible to us, can serve a higher purpose we cannot perceive, or allow for an outworking of good we cannot foresee given our finite, temporally-constrained viewpoint. Furthermore, many theologians argue that true free will entails the possibility of moral evil and natural evil as a consequence of physical laws and chaos. An automaton world without such possibilities would lack the higher-order good of genuine free choice and creaturely autonomy. Ultimately, while the depth of innocent suffering poses wrenching emotional and intellectual challenges, thinkers like Plantinga contend that its existence does not necessarily negate God's omnipotence, omniscience or omnibenevolence. Rather, it may reflect the price of a greater good - a cosmos of true freedom, beauty, and genuine possibility.
The further issue of God commanding violence against innocent children in the Old Testament is one of the most disturbing and difficult ethical challenges in the biblical narrative. Simply stating that the children go to heaven provides little solace or justification for such horrific acts. A more substantive response is needed that grapples with the profound moral quandaries involved. First, we must acknowledge the immense difficulty and tragic nature of these events. The idea of children suffering extreme violence seems abhorrent to our modern ethical sensibilities centered on human rights and the dignities of all people. We should not minimize or rationalize away the grave moral issue at stake. However, several philosophical considerations are relevant: If the children grew up without their parents and community, there is a high likelihood they could have harbored resentment, sought vengeance against the Israelites, and perpetuated the cycle of violence and pagan idol worship that God was trying to eradicate. Having witnessed the slaughter of their families, they may have been too traumatized and ideologically contaminated to be properly integrated into Israelite society and faith. Their presence could have undermined God's intent to create a dedicated covenant community devoted solely to Him. From God's omniscient perspective, He may have foreseen that allowing them to live could lead to disastrous consequences - idolatry again taking root, a perpetual state of conflict, or events that would subvert His greater redemptive plan for humanity. As the sovereign Creator, God has the prerogative and perfect knowledge to make difficult decisions that sacrifice temporal circumstances for higher, eternal goods that we cannot fully comprehend from our limited vantage point. While the violence seems reprehensible by modern standards, in the ancient Near Eastern context, this was the conventional practice when conquering cities aligned with false gods and idolatry that threatened national and spiritual security. Who are we, as finite, flawed humans to question the judgments of the infinite, perfectly righteous, all-loving, all-wise Creator? Doing so is the height of arrogance and ingratitude towards our Maker. Ultimately, we are lambed by our finite reason, constrained by the limitations of our temporal, human perspective. To adequately judge God's commands and acts requires wisdom and knowledge that only He possesses. While we may never fully resolve the ethical difficulties here, we can maintain humility, awe, and trust that the all-good, all-wise God has incontrovertible reasons for His actions, even when we cannot comprehend them. As hard as it is, faith calls us to submit our rights and intellects to He who knows best. So while these actions may seem repulsive judged by human ethics, they need to be understood from God's eternal, maximally wise framework which vastly exceeds our limited moral perception. God may have higher-order reasons and ethical priorities that constitute a "greatest good" beyond protecting all individual lives in this temporal realm. Perhaps these difficult actions prevented even greater evils, injustices or eternal consequences from playing out according to God's divine providence.
https://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html
Claim: So then killing innocent bunny rabbits in a great flood, killing every firstborn son in Egypt, sending bears to kill children over over insult but condoning incest, rape and slavery IS GOOD= because God says so? I UNDERSTAND (precisely why Christians outnumber atheists in American prisons by 200 to 1 ! CHECKMATE) *Enjoy your morbid death cult !
Reply:Many people struggle with these difficult passages in Scripture, and it's good to wrestle with these issues thoughtfully. Scripture consistently portrays God as loving, just, and holy. Any action He takes must be understood in this light. When we see passages that seem to contradict this, we should seek deeper understanding rather than hasty judgments. Each event mentioned occurred in a specific historical and covenantal context. The Flood, for example, came after generations of increasing wickedness. Egypt's plagues followed Pharaoh's repeated refusals and his own killing of Hebrew children. Understanding the full narrative is crucial. As Creator, God has rights over His creation that we don't. Just as we don't accuse a potter of "murder" for reshaping clay, God's actions with His creation aren't equivalent to a human doing the same. Some passages, like the bears, use vivid imagery common in Ancient Near Eastern literature. Many scholars see this as symbolic language emphasizing the seriousness of disrespecting God's anointed, not a literal event. God's revelation unfolds progressively. Practices tolerated in the Old Testament (like certain forms of slavery) are later condemned as God's people grow in understanding. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God's character. When the Bible records human evil (like incest or rape), it's descriptive, not prescriptive. God's recording of an event doesn't mean He approves it. God sees beyond this life. Physical death isn't the end. His primary concern is our eternal souls. Actions shocking to us might serve a greater, eternal purpose we can't yet see. Jesus, who loved His enemies even as they crucified Him, is God incarnate. His life and teachings are the clearest picture of God's heart. We interpret the Old Testament through the lens of Christ. The prison statistic, while interesting, doesn't tell the whole story. Factors like reporting differences, prison ministries leading to conversions, and the fact that many "Christians" in prison weren't practicing before incarceration complicate this data. Many who've deeply studied these issues, like C.S. Lewis or Lee Strobel, moved from skepticism to faith. Their journeys show these questions have thoughtful, satisfying answers.
The argument from evil:
This line of reasoning is a fallacy widespread amongst atheists, and used as justification to reject the God of the Bible:
1. The God of the Bible, in the Bible, is portrayed to be benevolent, loving, good, just, and merciful
2. But the God of the Old Testament drowns babies, condones slavery, and genocide.
3. The God of the Bible is evil. Therefore, the God of the Bible does not exist, and if he would exist, I would not worship Him.
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
1. God, is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, perfect and good.
2. If God is omniscient, he would have known in what world children would be born with physical deficiencies.
3. He would have known, and if completely good, avoided to create a world where children are born with physical deficiencies
4. Therefore, a perfect and good God probably doesn’t exist.
"In a game of chess you can make certain arbitrary concessions to your opponent, which stand to the ordinary rules of the game as miracles stand to the laws of nature. You can deprive yourself of a castle, or allow the other man sometimes to take back a move made inadvertently. But if you conceded everything that at any moment happened to suit him—if all his moves were revocable and if all your pieces disappeared whenever their position on the board was not to his liking—then you could not have a game at all. So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible.
Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."
- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Claim: Religion and Christianity are responsible for many wars and suffering in the world.
Response: The false and bigoted narrative that Religion causes all the world’s problems, especially the most deaths is empirically false, willfully ignorant & purposefully dishonest. Biased & unbalanced as no credit given for the good religion has done (hospitals, care of needy, founding scientific method, abolishing slavery, etc). The facts of history show that only 7% of wars ever fought were for religious reasons. (Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars).
While millions (around 259+ million in the last 100 years) have been killed by Atheists regimes like Stalin, Mao, etc.). That’s not counting the 56 Million+ abortions per year secular humanism has done and expanded to now killing babies even AFTER they are born now in some areas.
Gregory Koukl:“It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.”
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometimes fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells us what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil was "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action was performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophes, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
There is an ultimate moral principle by which to measure good and evil. But in this case there is an ultimate moral standard. This standard emanates from Gods nature.
Matt Slick Why does God allow suffering in the world? Dec 11, 2008
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this, the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23).
https://carm.org/about-doctrine/why-does-god-allow-suffering-in-the-world/
Claim: A god that requires never-ending fear AND compulsory love is not a good god. A god that sanctions slavery is not a good god. A god that aborts a whole planet because of his own mistakes is not a good god. A god that commands his followers to massacre entire settlements, including women and children is not a good god. A god that visits infinite sadistic punishment for finite crimes is not a good god. The god of the bible visits so much pain horror and death upon the world, it would only be right to hunt down this psychopathic god-monster and kill it.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Philosophy and Reason
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands an objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
If there is no God, there are no objective moral values, since they are prescribed " ought to be's".
If there is no God, then moral values are just a matter of personal opinion, and as such, no objectively or universally valid at all.
If that is the case, unbelievers have no moral standard to judge anything as morally good or bad.
Therefore, in order to criticize God, they need to borrow from the theistic worldview, and as such, their criticism is self-contradicting and invalid.
Even IF they could make a case to criticize God's choices, that would not refute his existence.
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The atheist does not believe that God exists because of evil but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined). There is a close connection between rationality and goodness: the most perfect being will always act according to the maximum of goodness which is characteristic of him. This necessarily also implies that God will create the best of all possible worlds because otherwise, he would either not be almighty, or not be absolutely good, or not be omniscient.
Gods goodness is expressed in his moral kingdom of grace. and it is the most exalted and the most divine of God’s works, and it is in this that God’s glory truly consists, since there would be no glory if his greatness and his goodness were not known and admired by minds. God’s glory has been thought to consist in his own perfect nature, and/or in his expression of that nature. But there is more to Gods glory than this; specifically, God’s glory also requires other beings to recognise his supreme qualities, since that if there were no such recognition then God would have no glory.
Hence it would be correct to say that God’s glory requires
(a) that God has a perfect nature,
(b) that he expresses that perfect nature, and
(c) that his perfect nature is recognised by other creatures.
Whilst God’s wisdom, intelligence and power are manifested in all parts of creation, his goodness is most apparent in his sense of justice, moral code, and plan of justification and grace expressed in Christs coming, death, and resurrection. If creation consisted merely in the amazing beauty and complexity of the universe and its mathematical structure, laws and fine-tuning, then God’s great wisdom and power would be evident, but not his goodness. In order to manifest his goodness, God created minds, rational and moral creatures upon which he can exercise justice, mercy, forgiveness, and so on.
When we deal with God, we deal with the highest being conceivable, also what regards goodness and justice. When we reject God and accuse him of immoral acts, as too often seen by atheists, they do judge from a human limited perspective, which is faulty and unreliable. Basically, they fool themselves. I cannot conceive greater foolishness than to reject God on such unreliable ground.
Is God a despot ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2812-despot-is-god-a-despot
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
https://web.archive.org/web/20111020030724/http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Building a theistic Worldview: first principles and first truths - Dealing with the issue of good and evil
http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_gdvsevl
Is the God of the Old Testament different than the God of the new testament?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2784-is-the-god-of-the-old-testament-different-than-the-god-of-the-new-testament
The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war?fbclid=IwAR0Vk_M-dh4Chg8pOQCISVx0f-FLHfmM8szIl0Z8UwhMq6ifs1EbMVDiMXw
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form. That is as if cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon (380,000 km or 236,000 miles away), then do the same for a billion other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red and put it somewhere in one billion of the piles. Blindfold a friend and ask her to pick the coin. The odds of her picking it are 1 in 10^37
Here the atheist responds, “Yes, these things may be improbable, but I’m going to believe them anyway.” This is a clear inconsistency. He does not believe that God exists because of evil, but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not. But above example of the proton/electron fine-tuning is just an example. I can list twenty different arguments, based on ontology, cosmology, teleology, philosophical and theological. He would have to dismiss the weight of all these in favour of just one, which apparently favours a worldview without God.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometime fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil were "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action were performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophies, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
The Creator as being the Owner of the universe is the "Standard Setter" for all good in the universe. Saying God is good, therefore, is like saying God is God when good is defined/identified as being consistent with the Will and Nature of such Creator and Owner of the universe.
There are clearly many horrendous events which happen in the Old Testament... the question is, "does one understand these things in context?" "and does one understand these things in relation to the sinfulness and state of humankind's position before the Creator?"
This is the real key. If you don't understand humankind as being under judgment then you would never understand how God is fully justified by killing us all at any moment...and how this would NEVER be murder in any shape or form.
Understanding these things systematically are key. If you understand that God can order the annihilation of any group of people and have it be part of His logical and just judgment then you might also understand how when through the natural order (tsunamis, etc) that God is fully justified at sustaining such natural laws and their consequences as well.
Putting slavery in its proper context is equally important. Understanding what appears to be rape in its context is also important to fully explain. Understanding a solder discussing the end of a battle and what method the solder's used to kill the babies of their enemies (and how this signified the end of the battle and their descendents would not rise up against them in battle again) is also important to put these things in context.
Sparing virgins so that they could be married was seen as a type of mercy from one point of view, but in today's society we would never think this way because we do not live in the brutal culture that existed over seven centuries before Christ.
You have to understand things in context. Child sacrifice was never condoned, yet those who read an English bible wrongfully think that was.
All of these many difficulties place the OT in poor light but they still need to be understood within the context of their culture and within the context of their setting or their Sitz im Leben.
Atheists attempt to show how the Hebrew God is evil and the other side is trying to show that the Hebrew God doesn't approve of a lot that is recorded... and what this Hebrew God "does" is fully justified because humankind is judged already and God is the Holy Perfect God and humans are the real little monsters.
Ultimately, these quest is related to theodicy....as they logically should.
the Creator is fully justified in having this world inhabited by "little monsters" who need to be adopted and changed into holy children who can fellowship with this Creator.
Cancer supports the idea of Intelligent Design. why? gene regulation systems is so fine-tuned in the human body that it works normally. yet if these regulation systems and genes are interrupted, cells go abnormal activities. let's say for example proto-oncogenes code for proteins that stimulate normal cell growth. if it gets mutated, it will lead to cancer due to increase in its protein [product or intrinsic protein activity. also, tumor suppressor genes code for proteins that prevent uncontrolled cell growth. if it's mutated and causes it to decrease its product protein's activity, it will lead to cancer. That's how functional and are, fine-tuned. And that supports Intelligent Design. In a Biblical point of view, before the fall, there's no such thing as 'error', therefore there are no mutations. mutations accumulated after the fall, due to sin. this also somehow goes against large-scale mutational evolution, as mutations cause more harm than good.
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given, but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:9-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order, but God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world--pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc.,) to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity to obtain eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to effect change, and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people--proving that sin and evil are utterly futile and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists.
So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe or a murder or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is destructive whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is that of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong, and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. Not only was Egypt saved but also his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to suffer innocently with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped or the innocent bystander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word, and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it; and because of that, all are vulnerable to the effects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and not to others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4).
I don't know why there is disequality on earth. Why I was born and raised in Switzerland, and others in Somalia. Why I had parents that took well care of me, while others are abandoned as newborns on the street. Why others don't even make it see the light of this world but are aborted, and their right to live taken by their parents. I don't know why I was born in the 20th century, while others in the 13th century, and died of the pest. I am fortunate that I did not be born in a place like the Caribbean, where people lost these days everything money can buy, or even their lives. Or in Hiroshima when the u.s. dropped their Atom bombs. Why I have had access to medicine during all my life, while others didn't. I was born in a western world, without persecution to Christians. If I were born in North Korea, from Christian parents, most probably I would spend all my life in a prison camp with suffering and little food and easy death.
In the lottery of life, I can consider myself a pretty fortunate fellow, when compared to many others. if I were born in u.s. in an Indian tribe before the white man came and brought the Gospel, I would probably worship manitu, and never know the God of the bible. I could have been born in Afghanistan by fundamentalist Muslim parents, and be raised and indoctrinated in a Madrass into the Islamic faith. One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims could maybe have converted in a later lifetime, and go to heaven, but is in hell, because his life was taken by Dahmer. But Dahmer, after committing many murders, converted shortly before he himself was murdered, and is now in heaven. How to explain? Is it just? Why is the chance to have a happy and successful life, or find the God of the Bible and access to know the gospel and salvation through Christ on earth not equal?
Some religions offer an explanation: In spiritism and eastern religions, it's by reincarnation. Upon their explanation, we pay for sins committed in previous lifes. There are questions which eventually one or the other can try and give a guessed answer. Truth is, I don't know why it is so. And I think nobody knows. And I have to live with that.
Isajah 45 cites the sovereign God :
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Theodicy is the most difficult issue to deal with. But I trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is just. I humble myself to recognize the fact, that I do not know and understand the big picture. God does. And I trust that all HE does is just - amen.
Hugh Ross: Why the universe is the way it is, page 101
God’s Training Program Many people wonder why an all-loving, all-powerful Creator would subject humans to the tribulations and tragedies of this world. One partial answer may be that if evil and suffering are temporary and humans eternal, then each person’s encounters with these troubles and griefs may serve as preparation for some high reward not possible otherwise. This consideration might also imply that humans are part of God’s strategy to bring about a total and permanent triumph of good over evil. The idea that our present exposure to evil and suffering may have some higher purpose finds additional support in the uniqueness of human morality and evil. Humanity’s acknowledgment of and striving for goodness in the moral/ethical sense is not expressed in any other species. Nor is there any evidence that these characteristics naturally evolved. Artifacts and records from the most ancient civilizations indicate that people living ages ago showed the same level of concern for morality and ethics as do people today. Humanity’s capacity to commit evil also is unique. No other species, past or present, shares it. Likewise, the human propensity for evil did not gradually evolve over tens of thousands of years. Anthropological and archeological studies confirm that this capacity emerged as suddenly as humans appeared. This unprecedented concern about morality and ethics in the first humans, along with their capacity and inclination to commit evil, implies that such traits were not accidents of nature. Rather, they musthave been purposely instilled for important reasons.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
Claim: If GOD created all that exists, he is not good. Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Reply: The term "evil" in Hebrew can refer to calamities, sufferings, or judgments, not moral evil or sin. God, as sovereign over all things, allows and uses difficult events for greater purposes, such as discipline, correction, or righteous judgment. The immediate context of Isaiah 45 highlights God's sovereign power over the nations, highlighting that He is in control, even when He allows trials. The Bible emphasizes that God is good, just, and holy in His essence, and that moral evil is a corruption of His good creation, not something He directly created. God's greatest purpose is redemptive, aiming to restore humanity and create new heavens and a new earth, free from suffering and evil. Therefore, a careful interpretation of this passage, in light of all biblical teaching, points to God's sovereignty over difficult circumstances, and does not suggest that He is directly the author of moral evil or sin.
There is a story commonly known as "Einstein's Box" or "Einstein and the Professor." While it is often attributed to Albert Einstein, there is no concrete evidence that he was the author of this story. Nevertheless, it has been widely circulated as a thought-provoking anecdote. Here is a version of the story:
In this story, a university professor challenges one of his students, who happens to be a devout believer in God. The professor begins by stating, "God created everything that exists, correct?" The student affirms this statement.
The professor then asks, "If God created everything, then God created evil, right?" The student hesitates but eventually agrees. The professor continues, "Is God good?" The student responds with an unequivocal "Yes." The professor, aiming to corner the student in a logical contradiction, asks, "If God created evil and God is good, then how can you explain the existence of evil?" At this point, the student remains silent, seemingly unable to provide a satisfactory answer. The professor smugly concludes that the student's faith is baseless and that God must, therefore, be evil. However, the student raises his hand and poses a question in return: "Professor, does cold exist?" The professor responds, "Of course, it does. Haven't you ever felt cold?" The student then asks, "Is there such a thing as darkness?" The professor again replies, "Yes, there is darkness. We can see it in the absence of light." The student continues, "You're right, Professor. Darkness does exist. In fact, it is the absence of light. Similarly, cold is the absence of heat. Now, Professor, does evil exist?" The professor hesitates and remains silent. The student concludes, "Evil is not a thing or a substance that is created by God. It is like darkness and cold, a term that we use to describe the absence of God's love in the hearts of individuals. It is the absence of goodness, compassion, and righteousness." While this story presents an interesting perspective on the nature of evil, it is important to note that it is a fictional anecdote rather than an actual account involving Albert Einstein. Its purpose is to offer a philosophical response to the problem of evil rather than being a historical event.
Claim: God put the wellbeing of people living in rich nations ahead of all those kids in Africa, and the ones that will die of bone cancer in the coming year.
Response: The presence of suffering and inequality in the world is explained from a biblical perspective by the notion of a fallen world. The Christian scriptures teach that the world is not in the state that God originally created. Human sin has resulted in a fracture, not only in the relationship between God and humanity but also within the creation itself, leading to suffering, injustice, and natural disasters. The Bible also shows a God who is intimately concerned with the suffering of His creation, exemplified in the person of Jesus Christ, who, according to Christian belief, entered into the suffering of the world, ultimately experiencing it Himself through the crucifixion. This act is seen as a demonstration of God's solidarity with human suffering and His commitment to ultimately redeem and restore the creation. Furthermore, scripture encourages us to act justly and to care for those who are suffering. The books of the Prophets in the Old Testament, such as Isaiah and Micah, emphasize the importance of justice and mercy. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks of caring for the "least of these" (Matthew 25:40) as being equivalent to caring for Him. The epistles further call to practical action in alleviating suffering, following the example of Christ's sacrificial love. The biblical narrative does not promise an end to all suffering on this side of the world but instead offers hope for redemption and restoration in the life to come. It also provides a mandate to work towards justice and to ease suffering in the present world, trusting that our actions are part of a larger divine plan that is moving towards a restored and perfect creation.
The question of why a loving God would allow suffering, particularly the suffering of children, is one of the most heart-wrenching and complex issues we face. God does not mete out suffering to children as a form of punishment for the sins of others. Rather, the presence of suffering in the world is a consequence of living in a fallen state, where both human free will and natural laws operate. In this context, suffering is not indicative of God's absence or indifference but rather a result of the brokenness of the world. This brokenness is a result of human actions and choices. The concept of free will is crucial here; it allows for genuine love and moral choices but also opens the possibility for evil and suffering. Moreover, God empathizes deeply with human suffering. This is most profoundly illustrated in the life and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus' suffering and crucifixion are the ultimate expression of God's solidarity with human pain and suffering. Through Jesus, God experienced human suffering firsthand and thus is intimately acquainted with the pain and grief we endure. This perspective does not fully explain or alleviate the pain of suffering, especially when it comes to children. However, it does offer a framework where suffering is not as a divine punishment but as part of the complex reality of a world that includes human freedom and its far-reaching consequences. Additionally, the Christian faith emphasizes the role of humans in responding to suffering. The teachings of Jesus, particularly about caring for the "least of these," are a directive to actively engage in alleviating pain and addressing injustice. This is not merely a suggestion but a moral imperative, reflecting the care and compassion that is central to God's character. While the presence of suffering, particularly among the most vulnerable like children, remains a profound mystery and a source of deep anguish, it is not a simple equation of divine punishment. Instead, it is a call to compassionate action and an invitation to trust in a God who is deeply involved in the human experience, including its most painful aspects.
Claim: If God did exist and still chose that path, he’s not worthy of worship.
Response: In addressing the concern that if God exists and yet allows suffering, He is not worthy of worship, it's important to consider a few key points. The nature of God is being inherently good and loving. The existence of suffering is not a reflection of God's character but rather as a consequence of human free will and the resulting brokenness of the world. God's decision to grant free will is an expression of His desire for a genuine relationship with humans, one based on love and choice rather than coercion. The concept of God suffering alongside humanity is central. The life and death of Jesus Christ are the ultimate demonstration of God's empathy and involvement in human suffering. This aspect of God participating in human pain is evidence of His deep concern for and connection with the plight of His creation. The idea of worshipping God is intertwined with the belief in His ultimate justice and goodness. God will one day right all wrongs and there will be a restoration and healing of all creation. This hope does not erase the pain of current suffering but provides a context in which it can be understood as part of a larger, divine story that is moving towards a restored and perfected state. The call to worship is a response to God's character—His love, mercy, justice, and righteousness—rather than a reaction to the immediate circumstances of life. Worship is not just about acknowledging God's power but also trusting in His ultimate goodness and faithfulness, even in the face of life's most challenging experiences. While the existence of suffering poses significant questions about the nature of God, it does not negate His worthiness of worship. Instead, it calls us to a deeper understanding of God's nature, His involvement in the world, and the hope for ultimate restoration and justice.
Claim: If God possessed foreknowledge from eternity that, by creating a world with free will, the majority of people would reject Him and ultimately end up in hell, yet proceeded to create it anyway, then such a God would be considered malevolent—a deity with whom I would want no association.
Response: It's important to consider the relationship between God's omniscience, human free will, and the concept of evil. While it's true that God, being all-knowing, would foresee the choices individuals would make, including the possibility of rejecting Him, it doesn't follow that God's foreknowledge dictates or compels those choices. Instead, God grants humans the gift of free will, allowing them to make genuine choices, even if He knows in advance what those choices will be. This free will is a fundamental aspect of human nature and is essential for genuine relationships and moral responsibility. Moreover, from the standpoint of divine wisdom and purpose, it's plausible to consider that God permits the existence of evil and suffering as part of a greater plan that includes the possibility of redemption and the pursuit of higher goods, such as moral growth, compassion, and solidarity. Furthermore, the notion of God being evil for allowing individuals to choose their own paths misunderstands the nature of love. True love necessitates freedom—the freedom to choose to love or reject God. Forcing individuals to love God would undermine the authenticity and sincerity of their relationship with Him. In essence, while the existence of evil and suffering may pose philosophical challenges, from an apologist's perspective, it's essential to trust in God's wisdom and goodness, recognizing that He works all things together for the ultimate good of humanity, even amidst the complexities of free will and moral decision-making.
Additionally, the concept of hell is not solely about punishment, but also about justice and the consequences of rejecting God's offer of salvation. While God desires all to be saved, He respects the dignity and autonomy of individuals to accept or reject His love. Hell, therefore, is a consequence of human choice rather than a vindictive act of God. Moreover, from a divine perspective, the existence of free will and the potential for redemption and reconciliation are essential components of God's plan for humanity. In His infinite wisdom, God saw a greater purpose in allowing individuals to experience the consequences of their choices, even if it involves temporary suffering. Ultimately, while the question of why God would create a world where some may reject Him and face eternal separation is profound,, it's essential to trust in God's sovereignty, wisdom, and perfect love, even when faced with the mystery of human suffering and divine justice.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
Claim: Why does God permit innocent children to die because of disease, natural catastrophes etc?
Response: The question of why God allows innocent suffering, especially of children, is one of the most difficult and profound issues in theology and philosophy, known as the problem of evil or theodicy. While there are no easy answers, renowned scholars like Alvin Plantinga have offered thoughtful perspectives: Plantinga argues that the existence of evil and suffering does not necessarily contradict the existence of an all-powerful, all-good God. He proposes that evil and suffering result from the way the world is metaphysically configured - with free will, natural laws, and the potential for disorder and imperfection. An all-good God may have very good reasons, beyond our comprehension, for creating a world with such potential for evil, rather than a bland, automaton-like world without genuine freedom. Additionally, our perception of evil and suffering may be limited. What appears evil to us could serve a greater good from God's transcendent, eternal perspective. The suffering of a child, while terrible to us, can serve a higher purpose we cannot perceive, or allow for an outworking of good we cannot foresee given our finite, temporally-constrained viewpoint. Furthermore, many theologians argue that true free will entails the possibility of moral evil and natural evil as a consequence of physical laws and chaos. An automaton world without such possibilities would lack the higher-order good of genuine free choice and creaturely autonomy. Ultimately, while the depth of innocent suffering poses wrenching emotional and intellectual challenges, thinkers like Plantinga contend that its existence does not necessarily negate God's omnipotence, omniscience or omnibenevolence. Rather, it may reflect the price of a greater good - a cosmos of true freedom, beauty, and genuine possibility.
The further issue of God commanding violence against innocent children in the Old Testament is one of the most disturbing and difficult ethical challenges in the biblical narrative. Simply stating that the children go to heaven provides little solace or justification for such horrific acts. A more substantive response is needed that grapples with the profound moral quandaries involved. First, we must acknowledge the immense difficulty and tragic nature of these events. The idea of children suffering extreme violence seems abhorrent to our modern ethical sensibilities centered on human rights and the dignities of all people. We should not minimize or rationalize away the grave moral issue at stake. However, several philosophical considerations are relevant: If the children grew up without their parents and community, there is a high likelihood they could have harbored resentment, sought vengeance against the Israelites, and perpetuated the cycle of violence and pagan idol worship that God was trying to eradicate. Having witnessed the slaughter of their families, they may have been too traumatized and ideologically contaminated to be properly integrated into Israelite society and faith. Their presence could have undermined God's intent to create a dedicated covenant community devoted solely to Him. From God's omniscient perspective, He may have foreseen that allowing them to live could lead to disastrous consequences - idolatry again taking root, a perpetual state of conflict, or events that would subvert His greater redemptive plan for humanity. As the sovereign Creator, God has the prerogative and perfect knowledge to make difficult decisions that sacrifice temporal circumstances for higher, eternal goods that we cannot fully comprehend from our limited vantage point. While the violence seems reprehensible by modern standards, in the ancient Near Eastern context, this was the conventional practice when conquering cities aligned with false gods and idolatry that threatened national and spiritual security. Who are we, as finite, flawed humans to question the judgments of the infinite, perfectly righteous, all-loving, all-wise Creator? Doing so is the height of arrogance and ingratitude towards our Maker. Ultimately, we are lambed by our finite reason, constrained by the limitations of our temporal, human perspective. To adequately judge God's commands and acts requires wisdom and knowledge that only He possesses. While we may never fully resolve the ethical difficulties here, we can maintain humility, awe, and trust that the all-good, all-wise God has incontrovertible reasons for His actions, even when we cannot comprehend them. As hard as it is, faith calls us to submit our rights and intellects to He who knows best. So while these actions may seem repulsive judged by human ethics, they need to be understood from God's eternal, maximally wise framework which vastly exceeds our limited moral perception. God may have higher-order reasons and ethical priorities that constitute a "greatest good" beyond protecting all individual lives in this temporal realm. Perhaps these difficult actions prevented even greater evils, injustices or eternal consequences from playing out according to God's divine providence.
https://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html
Claim: So then killing innocent bunny rabbits in a great flood, killing every firstborn son in Egypt, sending bears to kill children over over insult but condoning incest, rape and slavery IS GOOD= because God says so? I UNDERSTAND (precisely why Christians outnumber atheists in American prisons by 200 to 1 ! CHECKMATE) *Enjoy your morbid death cult !
Reply:Many people struggle with these difficult passages in Scripture, and it's good to wrestle with these issues thoughtfully. Scripture consistently portrays God as loving, just, and holy. Any action He takes must be understood in this light. When we see passages that seem to contradict this, we should seek deeper understanding rather than hasty judgments. Each event mentioned occurred in a specific historical and covenantal context. The Flood, for example, came after generations of increasing wickedness. Egypt's plagues followed Pharaoh's repeated refusals and his own killing of Hebrew children. Understanding the full narrative is crucial. As Creator, God has rights over His creation that we don't. Just as we don't accuse a potter of "murder" for reshaping clay, God's actions with His creation aren't equivalent to a human doing the same. Some passages, like the bears, use vivid imagery common in Ancient Near Eastern literature. Many scholars see this as symbolic language emphasizing the seriousness of disrespecting God's anointed, not a literal event. God's revelation unfolds progressively. Practices tolerated in the Old Testament (like certain forms of slavery) are later condemned as God's people grow in understanding. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God's character. When the Bible records human evil (like incest or rape), it's descriptive, not prescriptive. God's recording of an event doesn't mean He approves it. God sees beyond this life. Physical death isn't the end. His primary concern is our eternal souls. Actions shocking to us might serve a greater, eternal purpose we can't yet see. Jesus, who loved His enemies even as they crucified Him, is God incarnate. His life and teachings are the clearest picture of God's heart. We interpret the Old Testament through the lens of Christ. The prison statistic, while interesting, doesn't tell the whole story. Factors like reporting differences, prison ministries leading to conversions, and the fact that many "Christians" in prison weren't practicing before incarceration complicate this data. Many who've deeply studied these issues, like C.S. Lewis or Lee Strobel, moved from skepticism to faith. Their journeys show these questions have thoughtful, satisfying answers.
The argument from evil:
This line of reasoning is a fallacy widespread amongst atheists, and used as justification to reject the God of the Bible:
1. The God of the Bible, in the Bible, is portrayed to be benevolent, loving, good, just, and merciful
2. But the God of the Old Testament drowns babies, condones slavery, and genocide.
3. The God of the Bible is evil. Therefore, the God of the Bible does not exist, and if he would exist, I would not worship Him.
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
1. God, is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, perfect and good.
2. If God is omniscient, he would have known in what world children would be born with physical deficiencies.
3. He would have known, and if completely good, avoided to create a world where children are born with physical deficiencies
4. Therefore, a perfect and good God probably doesn’t exist.
"In a game of chess you can make certain arbitrary concessions to your opponent, which stand to the ordinary rules of the game as miracles stand to the laws of nature. You can deprive yourself of a castle, or allow the other man sometimes to take back a move made inadvertently. But if you conceded everything that at any moment happened to suit him—if all his moves were revocable and if all your pieces disappeared whenever their position on the board was not to his liking—then you could not have a game at all. So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible.
Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."
- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Claim: Religion and Christianity are responsible for many wars and suffering in the world.
Response: The false and bigoted narrative that Religion causes all the world’s problems, especially the most deaths is empirically false, willfully ignorant & purposefully dishonest. Biased & unbalanced as no credit given for the good religion has done (hospitals, care of needy, founding scientific method, abolishing slavery, etc). The facts of history show that only 7% of wars ever fought were for religious reasons. (Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars).
While millions (around 259+ million in the last 100 years) have been killed by Atheists regimes like Stalin, Mao, etc.). That’s not counting the 56 Million+ abortions per year secular humanism has done and expanded to now killing babies even AFTER they are born now in some areas.
Gregory Koukl:“It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.”
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometimes fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells us what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil was "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action was performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophes, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
There is an ultimate moral principle by which to measure good and evil. But in this case there is an ultimate moral standard. This standard emanates from Gods nature.
Matt Slick Why does God allow suffering in the world? Dec 11, 2008
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this, the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23).
https://carm.org/about-doctrine/why-does-god-allow-suffering-in-the-world/
Claim: A god that requires never-ending fear AND compulsory love is not a good god. A god that sanctions slavery is not a good god. A god that aborts a whole planet because of his own mistakes is not a good god. A god that commands his followers to massacre entire settlements, including women and children is not a good god. A god that visits infinite sadistic punishment for finite crimes is not a good god. The god of the bible visits so much pain horror and death upon the world, it would only be right to hunt down this psychopathic god-monster and kill it.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Philosophy and Reason
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands an objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
If there is no God, there are no objective moral values, since they are prescribed " ought to be's".
If there is no God, then moral values are just a matter of personal opinion, and as such, no objectively or universally valid at all.
If that is the case, unbelievers have no moral standard to judge anything as morally good or bad.
Therefore, in order to criticize God, they need to borrow from the theistic worldview, and as such, their criticism is self-contradicting and invalid.
Even IF they could make a case to criticize God's choices, that would not refute his existence.
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The atheist does not believe that God exists because of evil but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined). There is a close connection between rationality and goodness: the most perfect being will always act according to the maximum of goodness which is characteristic of him. This necessarily also implies that God will create the best of all possible worlds because otherwise, he would either not be almighty, or not be absolutely good, or not be omniscient.
Gods goodness is expressed in his moral kingdom of grace. and it is the most exalted and the most divine of God’s works, and it is in this that God’s glory truly consists, since there would be no glory if his greatness and his goodness were not known and admired by minds. God’s glory has been thought to consist in his own perfect nature, and/or in his expression of that nature. But there is more to Gods glory than this; specifically, God’s glory also requires other beings to recognise his supreme qualities, since that if there were no such recognition then God would have no glory.
Hence it would be correct to say that God’s glory requires
(a) that God has a perfect nature,
(b) that he expresses that perfect nature, and
(c) that his perfect nature is recognised by other creatures.
Whilst God’s wisdom, intelligence and power are manifested in all parts of creation, his goodness is most apparent in his sense of justice, moral code, and plan of justification and grace expressed in Christs coming, death, and resurrection. If creation consisted merely in the amazing beauty and complexity of the universe and its mathematical structure, laws and fine-tuning, then God’s great wisdom and power would be evident, but not his goodness. In order to manifest his goodness, God created minds, rational and moral creatures upon which he can exercise justice, mercy, forgiveness, and so on.
When we deal with God, we deal with the highest being conceivable, also what regards goodness and justice. When we reject God and accuse him of immoral acts, as too often seen by atheists, they do judge from a human limited perspective, which is faulty and unreliable. Basically, they fool themselves. I cannot conceive greater foolishness than to reject God on such unreliable ground.
Is God a despot ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2812-despot-is-god-a-despot
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
https://web.archive.org/web/20111020030724/http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Building a theistic Worldview: first principles and first truths - Dealing with the issue of good and evil
http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_gdvsevl
Is the God of the Old Testament different than the God of the new testament?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2784-is-the-god-of-the-old-testament-different-than-the-god-of-the-new-testament
The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war?fbclid=IwAR0Vk_M-dh4Chg8pOQCISVx0f-FLHfmM8szIl0Z8UwhMq6ifs1EbMVDiMXw
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form. That is as if cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon (380,000 km or 236,000 miles away), then do the same for a billion other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red and put it somewhere in one billion of the piles. Blindfold a friend and ask her to pick the coin. The odds of her picking it are 1 in 10^37
Here the atheist responds, “Yes, these things may be improbable, but I’m going to believe them anyway.” This is a clear inconsistency. He does not believe that God exists because of evil, but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not. But above example of the proton/electron fine-tuning is just an example. I can list twenty different arguments, based on ontology, cosmology, teleology, philosophical and theological. He would have to dismiss the weight of all these in favour of just one, which apparently favours a worldview without God.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometime fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil were "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action were performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophies, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
The Creator as being the Owner of the universe is the "Standard Setter" for all good in the universe. Saying God is good, therefore, is like saying God is God when good is defined/identified as being consistent with the Will and Nature of such Creator and Owner of the universe.
There are clearly many horrendous events which happen in the Old Testament... the question is, "does one understand these things in context?" "and does one understand these things in relation to the sinfulness and state of humankind's position before the Creator?"
This is the real key. If you don't understand humankind as being under judgment then you would never understand how God is fully justified by killing us all at any moment...and how this would NEVER be murder in any shape or form.
Understanding these things systematically are key. If you understand that God can order the annihilation of any group of people and have it be part of His logical and just judgment then you might also understand how when through the natural order (tsunamis, etc) that God is fully justified at sustaining such natural laws and their consequences as well.
Putting slavery in its proper context is equally important. Understanding what appears to be rape in its context is also important to fully explain. Understanding a solder discussing the end of a battle and what method the solder's used to kill the babies of their enemies (and how this signified the end of the battle and their descendents would not rise up against them in battle again) is also important to put these things in context.
Sparing virgins so that they could be married was seen as a type of mercy from one point of view, but in today's society we would never think this way because we do not live in the brutal culture that existed over seven centuries before Christ.
You have to understand things in context. Child sacrifice was never condoned, yet those who read an English bible wrongfully think that was.
All of these many difficulties place the OT in poor light but they still need to be understood within the context of their culture and within the context of their setting or their Sitz im Leben.
Atheists attempt to show how the Hebrew God is evil and the other side is trying to show that the Hebrew God doesn't approve of a lot that is recorded... and what this Hebrew God "does" is fully justified because humankind is judged already and God is the Holy Perfect God and humans are the real little monsters.
Ultimately, these quest is related to theodicy....as they logically should.
the Creator is fully justified in having this world inhabited by "little monsters" who need to be adopted and changed into holy children who can fellowship with this Creator.
Cancer supports the idea of Intelligent Design. why? gene regulation systems is so fine-tuned in the human body that it works normally. yet if these regulation systems and genes are interrupted, cells go abnormal activities. let's say for example proto-oncogenes code for proteins that stimulate normal cell growth. if it gets mutated, it will lead to cancer due to increase in its protein [product or intrinsic protein activity. also, tumor suppressor genes code for proteins that prevent uncontrolled cell growth. if it's mutated and causes it to decrease its product protein's activity, it will lead to cancer. That's how functional and are, fine-tuned. And that supports Intelligent Design. In a Biblical point of view, before the fall, there's no such thing as 'error', therefore there are no mutations. mutations accumulated after the fall, due to sin. this also somehow goes against large-scale mutational evolution, as mutations cause more harm than good.
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given, but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:9-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order, but God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world--pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc.,) to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity to obtain eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to effect change, and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people--proving that sin and evil are utterly futile and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists.
So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe or a murder or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is destructive whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is that of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong, and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. Not only was Egypt saved but also his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to suffer innocently with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped or the innocent bystander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word, and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it; and because of that, all are vulnerable to the effects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and not to others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4).
I don't know why there is disequality on earth. Why I was born and raised in Switzerland, and others in Somalia. Why I had parents that took well care of me, while others are abandoned as newborns on the street. Why others don't even make it see the light of this world but are aborted, and their right to live taken by their parents. I don't know why I was born in the 20th century, while others in the 13th century, and died of the pest. I am fortunate that I did not be born in a place like the Caribbean, where people lost these days everything money can buy, or even their lives. Or in Hiroshima when the u.s. dropped their Atom bombs. Why I have had access to medicine during all my life, while others didn't. I was born in a western world, without persecution to Christians. If I were born in North Korea, from Christian parents, most probably I would spend all my life in a prison camp with suffering and little food and easy death.
In the lottery of life, I can consider myself a pretty fortunate fellow, when compared to many others. if I were born in u.s. in an Indian tribe before the white man came and brought the Gospel, I would probably worship manitu, and never know the God of the bible. I could have been born in Afghanistan by fundamentalist Muslim parents, and be raised and indoctrinated in a Madrass into the Islamic faith. One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims could maybe have converted in a later lifetime, and go to heaven, but is in hell, because his life was taken by Dahmer. But Dahmer, after committing many murders, converted shortly before he himself was murdered, and is now in heaven. How to explain? Is it just? Why is the chance to have a happy and successful life, or find the God of the Bible and access to know the gospel and salvation through Christ on earth not equal?
Some religions offer an explanation: In spiritism and eastern religions, it's by reincarnation. Upon their explanation, we pay for sins committed in previous lifes. There are questions which eventually one or the other can try and give a guessed answer. Truth is, I don't know why it is so. And I think nobody knows. And I have to live with that.
Isajah 45 cites the sovereign God :
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Theodicy is the most difficult issue to deal with. But I trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is just. I humble myself to recognize the fact, that I do not know and understand the big picture. God does. And I trust that all HE does is just - amen.
Hugh Ross: Why the universe is the way it is, page 101
God’s Training Program Many people wonder why an all-loving, all-powerful Creator would subject humans to the tribulations and tragedies of this world. One partial answer may be that if evil and suffering are temporary and humans eternal, then each person’s encounters with these troubles and griefs may serve as preparation for some high reward not possible otherwise. This consideration might also imply that humans are part of God’s strategy to bring about a total and permanent triumph of good over evil. The idea that our present exposure to evil and suffering may have some higher purpose finds additional support in the uniqueness of human morality and evil. Humanity’s acknowledgment of and striving for goodness in the moral/ethical sense is not expressed in any other species. Nor is there any evidence that these characteristics naturally evolved. Artifacts and records from the most ancient civilizations indicate that people living ages ago showed the same level of concern for morality and ethics as do people today. Humanity’s capacity to commit evil also is unique. No other species, past or present, shares it. Likewise, the human propensity for evil did not gradually evolve over tens of thousands of years. Anthropological and archeological studies confirm that this capacity emerged as suddenly as humans appeared. This unprecedented concern about morality and ethics in the first humans, along with their capacity and inclination to commit evil, implies that such traits were not accidents of nature. Rather, they musthave been purposely instilled for important reasons.
Last edited by Otangelo on Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:41 am; edited 78 times in total
