Evil: Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
You, a finite being, dare to criticize
The Almighty God, whose power and might
Are beyond comprehension, beyond your eyes
Yet you judge His word, wrong or right
.
Your arrogance is monumental, my friend
Do you not realize the folly of your ways?
With limited understanding, you pretend
To be equal to the Creator of your days
.
Can you create a simple cell or life?
Can you make a planet that supports all?
Can you control the seasons or the strife
Of nature's storms, or the animals' call?
.
Do you know the workings of the mind and heart?
Do you love your spouse and children just right?
Or do you wish for an instruction chart
To guide you in the awesome task of life?
.
If on a single thing you have to admit
That you don't know, then you're incompetent
To criticize God, His actions or His plan
Instead, seek wisdom and humbly stand
.
For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge
And fools despise instruction and wisdom's pledge
So seek her out, for she will protect and guide
And make your path in life clear and bright
.
Remember, the foolishness of God
is wiser than human thought
And His strength, though weak, surpasses all we've wrought
So ask for wisdom from the One above
And it will be given, freely and with love.
.
Let all who read my word,
Embrace it with a humble heart.
For in it lies the key to life's reward,
And the end of sin's dark art.
.
The Bible speaks of slavery,
It tells of rules and laws to be,
And how to treat those who were wronged.
.
But man, with his modern eyes,
May criticize the ancient text.
He may say it's filled with lies,
And that it's morally perplexed.
.
Yet he forgets the time and place,
When slavery was commonplace.
He forgets the cultural race,
That influenced each and every case.
.
He fails to see the broader scope,
The story of redemption told.
And how it gave the slave new hope,
And set the stage for rights untold.
.
Man cannot judge what he does not know,
Or criticize what he does not see.
For the Bible's message, in truth, does show,
A path to freedom, equality, and dignity.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
https://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html
The argument from evil:
This line of reasoning is a fallacy widespread amongst atheists, and used as justification to reject the God of the Bible:
1. The God of the Bible, in the Bible, is portrayed to be benevolent, loving, good, just, and merciful
2. But the God of the Old Testament drowns babies, condones slavery, and genocide.
3. The God of the Bible is evil. Therefore, the God of the Bible does not exist, and if he would exist, I would not worship Him.
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
1. God, is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, perfect and good.
2. If God is omniscient, he would have known in what world children would be born with physical deficiencies.
3. He would have known, and if completely good, avoided to create a world where children are born with physical deficiencies
4. Therefore, a perfect and good God probably doesn’t exist.
"In a game of chess you can make certain arbitrary concessions to your opponent, which stand to the ordinary rules of the game as miracles stand to the laws of nature. You can deprive yourself of a castle, or allow the other man sometimes to take back a move made inadvertently. But if you conceded everything that at any moment happened to suit him—if all his moves were revocable and if all your pieces disappeared whenever their position on the board was not to his liking—then you could not have a game at all. So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible.
Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."
- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Claim: Religion and Christianity are responsible for many wars and suffering in the world.
Response: The false and bigoted narrative that Religion causes all the world’s problems, especially the most deaths is empirically false, willfully ignorant & purposefully dishonest. Biased & unbalanced as no credit given for the good religion has done (hospitals, care of needy, founding scientific method, abolishing slavery, etc). The facts of history show that only 7% of wars ever fought were for religious reasons. (Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars).
While millions (around 259+ million in the last 100 years) have been killed by Atheists regimes like Stalin, Mao, etc.). That’s not counting the 56 Million+ abortions per year secular humanism has done and expanded to now killing babies even AFTER they are born now in some areas.
Gregory Koukl:“It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.”
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometimes fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells us what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil was "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action was performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophes, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
There is an ultimate moral principle by which to measure good and evil. But in this case there is an ultimate moral standard. This standard emanates from Gods nature.
Matt Slick Why does God allow suffering in the world? Dec 11, 2008
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this, the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23).
https://carm.org/about-doctrine/why-does-god-allow-suffering-in-the-world/
Claim: A god that requires never-ending fear AND compulsory love is not a good god. A god that sanctions slavery is not a good god. A god that aborts a whole planet because of his own mistakes is not a good god. A god that commands his followers to massacre entire settlements, including women and children is not a good god. A god that visits infinite sadistic punishment for finite crimes is not a good god. The god of the bible visits so much pain horror and death upon the world, it would only be right to hunt down this psychopathic god-monster and kill it.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Philosophy and Reason
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands an objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
If there is no God, there are no objective moral values, since they are prescribed " ought to be's".
If there is no God, then moral values are just a matter of personal opinion, and as such, no objectively or universally valid at all.
If that is the case, unbelievers have no moral standard to judge anything as morally good or bad.
Therefore, in order to criticize God, they need to borrow from the theistic worldview, and as such, their criticism is self-contradicting and invalid.
Even IF they could make a case to criticize God's choices, that would not refute his existence.
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The atheist does not believe that God exists because of evil but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined). There is a close connection between rationality and goodness: the most perfect being will always act according to the maximum of goodness which is characteristic of him. This necessarily also implies that God will create the best of all possible worlds because otherwise, he would either not be almighty, or not be absolutely good, or not be omniscient.
Gods goodness is expressed in his moral kingdom of grace. and it is the most exalted and the most divine of God’s works, and it is in this that God’s glory truly consists, since there would be no glory if his greatness and his goodness were not known and admired by minds. God’s glory has been thought to consist in his own perfect nature, and/or in his expression of that nature. But there is more to Gods glory than this; specifically, God’s glory also requires other beings to recognise his supreme qualities, since that if there were no such recognition then God would have no glory.
Hence it would be correct to say that God’s glory requires
(a) that God has a perfect nature,
(b) that he expresses that perfect nature, and
(c) that his perfect nature is recognised by other creatures.
Whilst God’s wisdom, intelligence and power are manifested in all parts of creation, his goodness is most apparent in his sense of justice, moral code, and plan of justification and grace expressed in Christs coming, death, and resurrection. If creation consisted merely in the amazing beauty and complexity of the universe and its mathematical structure, laws and fine-tuning, then God’s great wisdom and power would be evident, but not his goodness. In order to manifest his goodness, God created minds, rational and moral creatures upon which he can exercise justice, mercy, forgiveness, and so on.
When we deal with God, we deal with the highest being conceivable, also what regards goodness and justice. When we reject God and accuse him of immoral acts, as too often seen by atheists, they do judge from a human limited perspective, which is faulty and unreliable. Basically, they fool themselves. I cannot conceive greater foolishness than to reject God on such unreliable ground.
Is God a despot ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2812-despot-is-god-a-despot
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
https://web.archive.org/web/20111020030724/http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Building a theistic Worldview: first principles and first truths - Dealing with the issue of good and evil
http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_gdvsevl
Is the God of the Old Testament different than the God of the new testament?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2784-is-the-god-of-the-old-testament-different-than-the-god-of-the-new-testament
The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war?fbclid=IwAR0Vk_M-dh4Chg8pOQCISVx0f-FLHfmM8szIl0Z8UwhMq6ifs1EbMVDiMXw
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form. That is as if cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon (380,000 km or 236,000 miles away), then do the same for a billion other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red and put it somewhere in one billion of the piles. Blindfold a friend and ask her to pick the coin. The odds of her picking it are 1 in 10^37
Here the atheist responds, “Yes, these things may be improbable, but I’m going to believe them anyway.” This is a clear inconsistency. He does not believe that God exists because of evil, but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not. But above example of the proton/electron fine-tuning is just an example. I can list twenty different arguments, based on ontology, cosmology, teleology, philosophical and theological. He would have to dismiss the weight of all these in favour of just one, which apparently favours a worldview without God.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometime fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil were "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action were performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophies, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
The Creator as being the Owner of the universe is the "Standard Setter" for all good in the universe. Saying God is good, therefore, is like saying God is God when good is defined/identified as being consistent with the Will and Nature of such Creator and Owner of the universe.
There are clearly many horrendous events which happen in the Old Testament... the question is, "does one understand these things in context?" "and does one understand these things in relation to the sinfulness and state of humankind's position before the Creator?"
This is the real key. If you don't understand humankind as being under judgment then you would never understand how God is fully justified by killing us all at any moment...and how this would NEVER be murder in any shape or form.
Understanding these things systematically are key. If you understand that God can order the annihilation of any group of people and have it be part of His logical and just judgment then you might also understand how when through the natural order (tsunamis, etc) that God is fully justified at sustaining such natural laws and their consequences as well.
Putting slavery in its proper context is equally important. Understanding what appears to be rape in its context is also important to fully explain. Understanding a solder discussing the end of a battle and what method the solder's used to kill the babies of their enemies (and how this signified the end of the battle and their descendents would not rise up against them in battle again) is also important to put these things in context.
Sparing virgins so that they could be married was seen as a type of mercy from one point of view, but in today's society we would never think this way because we do not live in the brutal culture that existed over seven centuries before Christ.
You have to understand things in context. Child sacrifice was never condoned, yet those who read an English bible wrongfully think that was.
All of these many difficulties place the OT in poor light but they still need to be understood within the context of their culture and within the context of their setting or their Sitz im Leben.
Atheists attempt to show how the Hebrew God is evil and the other side is trying to show that the Hebrew God doesn't approve of a lot that is recorded... and what this Hebrew God "does" is fully justified because humankind is judged already and God is the Holy Perfect God and humans are the real little monsters.
Ultimately, these quest is related to theodicy....as they logically should.
the Creator is fully justified in having this world inhabited by "little monsters" who need to be adopted and changed into holy children who can fellowship with this Creator.
Cancer supports the idea of Intelligent Design. why? gene regulation systems is so fine-tuned in the human body that it works normally. yet if these regulation systems and genes are interrupted, cells go abnormal activities. let's say for example proto-oncogenes code for proteins that stimulate normal cell growth. if it gets mutated, it will lead to cancer due to increase in its protein [product or intrinsic protein activity. also, tumor suppressor genes code for proteins that prevent uncontrolled cell growth. if it's mutated and causes it to decrease its product protein's activity, it will lead to cancer. That's how functional and are, fine-tuned. And that supports Intelligent Design. In a Biblical point of view, before the fall, there's no such thing as 'error', therefore there are no mutations. mutations accumulated after the fall, due to sin. this also somehow goes against large-scale mutational evolution, as mutations cause more harm than good.
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given, but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:9-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order, but God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world--pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc.,) to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity to obtain eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to effect change, and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people--proving that sin and evil are utterly futile and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists.
So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe or a murder or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is destructive whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is that of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong, and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. Not only was Egypt saved but also his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to suffer innocently with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped or the innocent bystander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word, and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it; and because of that, all are vulnerable to the effects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and not to others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4).
I don't know why there is disequality on earth. Why I was born and raised in Switzerland, and others in Somalia. Why I had parents that took well care of me, while others are abandoned as newborns on the street. Why others don't even make it see the light of this world but are aborted, and their right to live taken by their parents. I don't know why I was born in the 20th century, while others in the 13th century, and died of the pest. I am fortunate that I did not be born in a place like the Caribbean, where people lost these days everything money can buy, or even their lives. Or in Hiroshima when the u.s. dropped their Atom bombs. Why I have had access to medicine during all my life, while others didn't. I was born in a western world, without persecution to Christians. If I were born in North Korea, from Christian parents, most probably I would spend all my life in a prison camp with suffering and little food and easy death.
In the lottery of life, I can consider myself a pretty fortunate fellow, when compared to many others. if I were born in u.s. in an Indian tribe before the white man came and brought the Gospel, I would probably worship manitu, and never know the God of the bible. I could have been born in Afghanistan by fundamentalist Muslim parents, and be raised and indoctrinated in a Madrass into the Islamic faith. One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims could maybe have converted in a later lifetime, and go to heaven, but is in hell, because his life was taken by Dahmer. But Dahmer, after committing many murders, converted shortly before he himself was murdered, and is now in heaven. How to explain? Is it just? Why is the chance to have a happy and successful life, or find the God of the Bible and access to know the gospel and salvation through Christ on earth not equal?
Some religions offer an explanation: In spiritism and eastern religions, it's by reincarnation. Upon their explanation, we pay for sins committed in previous lifes. There are questions which eventually one or the other can try and give a guessed answer. Truth is, I don't know why it is so. And I think nobody knows. And I have to live with that.
Isajah 45 cites the sovereign God :
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Theodicy is the most difficult issue to deal with. But I trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is just. I humble myself to recognize the fact, that I do not know and understand the big picture. God does. And I trust that all HE does is just - amen.
Hugh Ross: Why the universe is the way it is, page 101
God’s Training Program Many people wonder why an all-loving, all-powerful Creator would subject humans to the tribulations and tragedies of this world. One partial answer may be that if evil and suffering are temporary and humans eternal, then each person’s encounters with these troubles and griefs may serve as preparation for some high reward not possible otherwise. This consideration might also imply that humans are part of God’s strategy to bring about a total and permanent triumph of good over evil. The idea that our present exposure to evil and suffering may have some higher purpose finds additional support in the uniqueness of human morality and evil. Humanity’s acknowledgment of and striving for goodness in the moral/ethical sense is not expressed in any other species. Nor is there any evidence that these characteristics naturally evolved. Artifacts and records from the most ancient civilizations indicate that people living ages ago showed the same level of concern for morality and ethics as do people today. Humanity’s capacity to commit evil also is unique. No other species, past or present, shares it. Likewise, the human propensity for evil did not gradually evolve over tens of thousands of years. Anthropological and archeological studies confirm that this capacity emerged as suddenly as humans appeared. This unprecedented concern about morality and ethics in the first humans, along with their capacity and inclination to commit evil, implies that such traits were not accidents of nature. Rather, they musthave been purposely instilled for important reasons.
The Bible teaches that God is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing. It also says that God is in complete control of everything that happens. Yet God often seems to be standing idly by while hundreds and even thousands of innocent people suffer or die from the ravages of a natural disaster. Why would a loving God who is also sovereign allow the forces of nature to shatter so many lives? First, natural disasters really are, in one sense, “acts of God.” In the context of the laws of physics and space-time dimensions, the forces behind such disasters are all designed to deliver significant benefits for humanity. For example, God could easily eradicate hurricanes. Such elimination, however, would drastically reduce the input of sea-salt aerosols[1] and bacterial and viral particles[2] into the atmosphere. That reduction would lead to a decrease in rainfall. Hurricanes also regulate tropical ocean temperatures.[3] Given the laws of physics and space-time dimensions chosen for the universe, both the frequency and the average intensity of hurricanes are set to maximally benefit humanity and human civilization. Likewise, tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanoes, wildfires, ice ages, floods, droughts, and disease are all set at levels that deliver the maximum benefit and minimum damage to humans and their civilization.[4] But humans don’t always make wise choices about where and how to build their dwellings. Second, no human being can claim true innocence before God. All have sinned (see Rom. 3:9–12). All have defied God’s authority in one way or another. All have fallen short of God’s standard of moral perfection (see Rom. 3:10–20). So while people may be “innocent” of any specific offense related to the disaster they face, they are not innocent in any absolute sense that justifies accusing God of injustice.[5] Third, God does not stand idly by. Often we’re stunned at how many people survive nature’s outbursts. We have no way to determine how catastrophic an event “might have been” apart from God’s restraint. On some occasions, it appears he miraculously intervenes to rescue people from disaster. However, if God intervened in natural calamities in an overriding way, he would abrogate their benefits, including the disciplinary benefits of physical laws and space-time dimensions. What could explain God’s “failure” to rescue all “innocent” people from criminal acts? If “good” people were never harmed by criminal acts or abusive treatment, human authorities might never take action to restrain evil or even to take evil seriously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzL8R5sIXuY&fbclid=IwAR3-RZVKE-iCembl0V7iGIFJTGsjJFpUwHL6Rlly8al40eHEyDQv7BW_2qE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pso2FLvY_WQ&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR34jzbfoyWaPjxkxz2utwBlCoMG6q7FMMJtK9JnravAuEJSV6kYtLvem-Q
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Does the Old Testament condone rape?
http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=5197
If God Is All-Powerful, Why Didn't He Create a World Without Suffering & Evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3kIj0j9oJg
John MacArthur: Why Does God Allow So Much Suffering and Evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFzk1afiD8&fbclid=IwAR3m2Vq8v-ifqJXwG-TfCFqX3G8eAwj76HOjlZcS0lYsWJU19lnBI0dEbPA
Suffering and Evil: The Probability Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxj8ag8Ntd4
Suffering and Evil: The Logical Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k64YJYBUFLM
The Problem of Evil has an “Evil” Problem
http://michaelminkoff.com/god-evil-problem-evil-problem-evil/?fbclid=IwAR0egNZ0OurgbZR_fREyh4QBlEtoBIMyy7zwjIevGIgzXtiTRqEMy5oBts8
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
You, a finite being, dare to criticize
The Almighty God, whose power and might
Are beyond comprehension, beyond your eyes
Yet you judge His word, wrong or right
.
Your arrogance is monumental, my friend
Do you not realize the folly of your ways?
With limited understanding, you pretend
To be equal to the Creator of your days
.
Can you create a simple cell or life?
Can you make a planet that supports all?
Can you control the seasons or the strife
Of nature's storms, or the animals' call?
.
Do you know the workings of the mind and heart?
Do you love your spouse and children just right?
Or do you wish for an instruction chart
To guide you in the awesome task of life?
.
If on a single thing you have to admit
That you don't know, then you're incompetent
To criticize God, His actions or His plan
Instead, seek wisdom and humbly stand
.
For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge
And fools despise instruction and wisdom's pledge
So seek her out, for she will protect and guide
And make your path in life clear and bright
.
Remember, the foolishness of God
is wiser than human thought
And His strength, though weak, surpasses all we've wrought
So ask for wisdom from the One above
And it will be given, freely and with love.
.
Let all who read my word,
Embrace it with a humble heart.
For in it lies the key to life's reward,
And the end of sin's dark art.
.
The Bible speaks of slavery,
It tells of rules and laws to be,
And how to treat those who were wronged.
.
But man, with his modern eyes,
May criticize the ancient text.
He may say it's filled with lies,
And that it's morally perplexed.
.
Yet he forgets the time and place,
When slavery was commonplace.
He forgets the cultural race,
That influenced each and every case.
.
He fails to see the broader scope,
The story of redemption told.
And how it gave the slave new hope,
And set the stage for rights untold.
.
Man cannot judge what he does not know,
Or criticize what he does not see.
For the Bible's message, in truth, does show,
A path to freedom, equality, and dignity.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
https://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html
The argument from evil:
This line of reasoning is a fallacy widespread amongst atheists, and used as justification to reject the God of the Bible:
1. The God of the Bible, in the Bible, is portrayed to be benevolent, loving, good, just, and merciful
2. But the God of the Old Testament drowns babies, condones slavery, and genocide.
3. The God of the Bible is evil. Therefore, the God of the Bible does not exist, and if he would exist, I would not worship Him.
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
1. God, is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, perfect and good.
2. If God is omniscient, he would have known in what world children would be born with physical deficiencies.
3. He would have known, and if completely good, avoided to create a world where children are born with physical deficiencies
4. Therefore, a perfect and good God probably doesn’t exist.
"In a game of chess you can make certain arbitrary concessions to your opponent, which stand to the ordinary rules of the game as miracles stand to the laws of nature. You can deprive yourself of a castle, or allow the other man sometimes to take back a move made inadvertently. But if you conceded everything that at any moment happened to suit him—if all his moves were revocable and if all your pieces disappeared whenever their position on the board was not to his liking—then you could not have a game at all. So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible.
Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."
- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
Claim: Religion and Christianity are responsible for many wars and suffering in the world.
Response: The false and bigoted narrative that Religion causes all the world’s problems, especially the most deaths is empirically false, willfully ignorant & purposefully dishonest. Biased & unbalanced as no credit given for the good religion has done (hospitals, care of needy, founding scientific method, abolishing slavery, etc). The facts of history show that only 7% of wars ever fought were for religious reasons. (Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars).
While millions (around 259+ million in the last 100 years) have been killed by Atheists regimes like Stalin, Mao, etc.). That’s not counting the 56 Million+ abortions per year secular humanism has done and expanded to now killing babies even AFTER they are born now in some areas.
Gregory Koukl:“It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.”
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometimes fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells us what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil was "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action was performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophes, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
There is an ultimate moral principle by which to measure good and evil. But in this case there is an ultimate moral standard. This standard emanates from Gods nature.
Matt Slick Why does God allow suffering in the world? Dec 11, 2008
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this, the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23).
https://carm.org/about-doctrine/why-does-god-allow-suffering-in-the-world/
Claim: A god that requires never-ending fear AND compulsory love is not a good god. A god that sanctions slavery is not a good god. A god that aborts a whole planet because of his own mistakes is not a good god. A god that commands his followers to massacre entire settlements, including women and children is not a good god. A god that visits infinite sadistic punishment for finite crimes is not a good god. The god of the bible visits so much pain horror and death upon the world, it would only be right to hunt down this psychopathic god-monster and kill it.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Philosophy and Reason
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands an objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1915-evil-why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-in-the-world
If there is no God, there are no objective moral values, since they are prescribed " ought to be's".
If there is no God, then moral values are just a matter of personal opinion, and as such, no objectively or universally valid at all.
If that is the case, unbelievers have no moral standard to judge anything as morally good or bad.
Therefore, in order to criticize God, they need to borrow from the theistic worldview, and as such, their criticism is self-contradicting and invalid.
Even IF they could make a case to criticize God's choices, that would not refute his existence.
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The atheist does not believe that God exists because of evil but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined). There is a close connection between rationality and goodness: the most perfect being will always act according to the maximum of goodness which is characteristic of him. This necessarily also implies that God will create the best of all possible worlds because otherwise, he would either not be almighty, or not be absolutely good, or not be omniscient.
Gods goodness is expressed in his moral kingdom of grace. and it is the most exalted and the most divine of God’s works, and it is in this that God’s glory truly consists, since there would be no glory if his greatness and his goodness were not known and admired by minds. God’s glory has been thought to consist in his own perfect nature, and/or in his expression of that nature. But there is more to Gods glory than this; specifically, God’s glory also requires other beings to recognise his supreme qualities, since that if there were no such recognition then God would have no glory.
Hence it would be correct to say that God’s glory requires
(a) that God has a perfect nature,
(b) that he expresses that perfect nature, and
(c) that his perfect nature is recognised by other creatures.
Whilst God’s wisdom, intelligence and power are manifested in all parts of creation, his goodness is most apparent in his sense of justice, moral code, and plan of justification and grace expressed in Christs coming, death, and resurrection. If creation consisted merely in the amazing beauty and complexity of the universe and its mathematical structure, laws and fine-tuning, then God’s great wisdom and power would be evident, but not his goodness. In order to manifest his goodness, God created minds, rational and moral creatures upon which he can exercise justice, mercy, forgiveness, and so on.
When we deal with God, we deal with the highest being conceivable, also what regards goodness and justice. When we reject God and accuse him of immoral acts, as too often seen by atheists, they do judge from a human limited perspective, which is faulty and unreliable. Basically, they fool themselves. I cannot conceive greater foolishness than to reject God on such unreliable ground.
Is God a despot ?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2812-despot-is-god-a-despot
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
https://web.archive.org/web/20111020030724/http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Building a theistic Worldview: first principles and first truths - Dealing with the issue of good and evil
http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_gdvsevl
Is the God of the Old Testament different than the God of the new testament?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2784-is-the-god-of-the-old-testament-different-than-the-god-of-the-new-testament
The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War
https://carm.org/religion-cause-war?fbclid=IwAR0Vk_M-dh4Chg8pOQCISVx0f-FLHfmM8szIl0Z8UwhMq6ifs1EbMVDiMXw
Darwin worried himself silly about the suffering brought on by the struggle for existence:
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice” (Darwin 1985–, 8: 224).
Response: The universe produced the number of electrons equivalent to the number of protons to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 37th power. If it were not so, galaxies, stars, and planets would never form. That is as if cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon (380,000 km or 236,000 miles away), then do the same for a billion other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red and put it somewhere in one billion of the piles. Blindfold a friend and ask her to pick the coin. The odds of her picking it are 1 in 10^37
Here the atheist responds, “Yes, these things may be improbable, but I’m going to believe them anyway.” This is a clear inconsistency. He does not believe that God exists because of evil, but does also not believe in God DESPITE the odds which favour the belief that God was rather involved in creating the universe and life, rather than not. But above example of the proton/electron fine-tuning is just an example. I can list twenty different arguments, based on ontology, cosmology, teleology, philosophical and theological. He would have to dismiss the weight of all these in favour of just one, which apparently favours a worldview without God.
So even if the believer in God has not a full understanding of why God created a world where there is suffering, but there can well be an acceptable explanation once the full picture is exposed. If God created the universe and life, then, upon what we do know, we can infer that God’s intelligence and mental power are unimaginably higher than ours, and that gives us good reasons to believe, that there is a bigger picture which we do not understand, but when we do, we will grant that Gods goodness is fully compatible with the broken world we live in. On the other hand, believing that the universe and life coming into existence by a freaky unlikely accident which is in the realm of the impossible, despite the extreme odds, is logical and rational?
Furthermore, there are some good reasons why God permits suffering in the world. Making love possible, means giving us free will, and the ability to make free choices. That entails the possibility to choose evil and to make bad choices. Freedom is wonderful, but it can be misused. God was willing to create free creatures, knowing the risks, but did go forward nonetheless. God can also permit pain and difficult times in peoples life that as outcome permit people to grow spiritually, or as human beings. Again: We have not a full understanding of why God chose to go forward, rather than not.
God, being maximally great, must have omniscience.
Omniscience demands objective perspective because subjectivity is a result of partial knowledge and understanding.
Objective omniscience means that God will be able to discern what is good at all times in all possible scenarios. It doesn’t just allow for it, it logically demands it.
Humans with free will run the world. Free will is a necessary good because it is the only thing from which personhood can be made. So the real problem is mankind, not God, and what we do with our free will.
Every good parent takes risks in allowing their kids the freedom to learn and do new things. Your child will sometime fall when learning to walk and will face even greater risks as he grows and learns. God tells what is good and how to live, but we choose whether to do good or evil. God commands us to not do evil but he doesn't put us in restraints so that we can't do evil. He did give government to punish evil and cause evil people to constrain themselves. Ultimately God created us to be in a loving relationship, but all love is voluntary. It has to be so. To be able to choose love we also have to have the ability to choose to hate.
You're attempting to make a moral judgment against God as if permitting evil were "wrong". Where, as an atheist, could you ever obtain any standard by which you could declare any action to be morally wrong whether that action were performed by God or by man? In your world there's only the material realm and, according to atheism, the Universe is merely an accidentally produced petri dish containing organic and inorganic entities while lacking any moral law or ultimate purpose. If you're view is factually accurate, then disease, catastrophies, permitting any kind of suffering or evil might be a temporarily unpleasant experience for certain valueless organic units, but nothing, including the infliction of diseases upon innocent babies, could ever really be objectively, morally wrong. This is just one of the many grounding problems with atheism. It leaves you with no basis or standard that you can appeal to by which anything or any action can ever be condemned as wrong or evil. So if you really believe what you say you believe, why the whining outrage over diseases? You should be celebrating the brutality of bare nature. It's just the material, undesigned Universe, randomly thinning the herd, remember? Or did you forget? It sounds like you believe in God, but you just don't like Him.
You as a finite being consider yourself worthy to criticize God. The arrogance of such is monumental. Do you realize that? You with limited understanding AND perspective have considered yourself more than the equal of God your creator? Able to judge His actions and motives and the benefit they bring? Are you serious? Do you know how to create a simple cell? Do you know how to create life? Do you have the power to do EITHER? Do you know how to create a planet that supports life? Do you know how to create a climate and environment on such a planet? Do you know how to create a storm and have the power to make it rain? Do you have the power to make the seasons follow from summer, to fall....to winter..to spring? Do you know how to imprint animals with the instinct to reproduce and to take action to protect themselves from predators? Have you in your wisdom come up with the perfect system for justice among humans and consider yourself as an authority on what is BEST for all? Do you know the inner workings of the mind...and the heart and are able to act for the benefit of both in every endeavor? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know why you have been given the days you have been? Assuming you have a wife...do you know always how to love her and treat her as you should? Do you do so? Assuming you have kids...did you know every moment exactly what was best and did it in raising them? Did you love them for their best..for their total success? Or were you wishing for an instruction manual to answer the awesome responsibility of child rearing? If on a single thing I have mentioned you have to answer honestly...I...don't ...know. Then you are incompetent to criticize God. The fact you do not understand...should encourage humility...not judgement. It should encourage asking for wisdom from God. His answer to you? Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. And again: Proverbs 3:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.. God's advice to you? Proverbs 2:6-7 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Ponder this: 1st Cor 1:25: 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And finally..are you on your own in the gaining of WISDOM? No. James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Just as Salvation for each person is present for the asking...so is the WISDOM to approach life rightly.
The Creator as being the Owner of the universe is the "Standard Setter" for all good in the universe. Saying God is good, therefore, is like saying God is God when good is defined/identified as being consistent with the Will and Nature of such Creator and Owner of the universe.
There are clearly many horrendous events which happen in the Old Testament... the question is, "does one understand these things in context?" "and does one understand these things in relation to the sinfulness and state of humankind's position before the Creator?"
This is the real key. If you don't understand humankind as being under judgment then you would never understand how God is fully justified by killing us all at any moment...and how this would NEVER be murder in any shape or form.
Understanding these things systematically are key. If you understand that God can order the annihilation of any group of people and have it be part of His logical and just judgment then you might also understand how when through the natural order (tsunamis, etc) that God is fully justified at sustaining such natural laws and their consequences as well.
Putting slavery in its proper context is equally important. Understanding what appears to be rape in its context is also important to fully explain. Understanding a solder discussing the end of a battle and what method the solder's used to kill the babies of their enemies (and how this signified the end of the battle and their descendents would not rise up against them in battle again) is also important to put these things in context.
Sparing virgins so that they could be married was seen as a type of mercy from one point of view, but in today's society we would never think this way because we do not live in the brutal culture that existed over seven centuries before Christ.
You have to understand things in context. Child sacrifice was never condoned, yet those who read an English bible wrongfully think that was.
All of these many difficulties place the OT in poor light but they still need to be understood within the context of their culture and within the context of their setting or their Sitz im Leben.
Atheists attempt to show how the Hebrew God is evil and the other side is trying to show that the Hebrew God doesn't approve of a lot that is recorded... and what this Hebrew God "does" is fully justified because humankind is judged already and God is the Holy Perfect God and humans are the real little monsters.
Ultimately, these quest is related to theodicy....as they logically should.
the Creator is fully justified in having this world inhabited by "little monsters" who need to be adopted and changed into holy children who can fellowship with this Creator.
Cancer supports the idea of Intelligent Design. why? gene regulation systems is so fine-tuned in the human body that it works normally. yet if these regulation systems and genes are interrupted, cells go abnormal activities. let's say for example proto-oncogenes code for proteins that stimulate normal cell growth. if it gets mutated, it will lead to cancer due to increase in its protein [product or intrinsic protein activity. also, tumor suppressor genes code for proteins that prevent uncontrolled cell growth. if it's mutated and causes it to decrease its product protein's activity, it will lead to cancer. That's how functional and are, fine-tuned. And that supports Intelligent Design. In a Biblical point of view, before the fall, there's no such thing as 'error', therefore there are no mutations. mutations accumulated after the fall, due to sin. this also somehow goes against large-scale mutational evolution, as mutations cause more harm than good.
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given, but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is malignant and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:9-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order, but God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world--pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc.,) to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity to obtain eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to effect change, and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people--proving that sin and evil are utterly futile and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists.
So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe or a murder or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is destructive whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is that of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong, and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. Not only was Egypt saved but also his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to suffer innocently with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped or the innocent bystander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word, and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it; and because of that, all are vulnerable to the effects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and not to others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4).
I don't know why there is disequality on earth. Why I was born and raised in Switzerland, and others in Somalia. Why I had parents that took well care of me, while others are abandoned as newborns on the street. Why others don't even make it see the light of this world but are aborted, and their right to live taken by their parents. I don't know why I was born in the 20th century, while others in the 13th century, and died of the pest. I am fortunate that I did not be born in a place like the Caribbean, where people lost these days everything money can buy, or even their lives. Or in Hiroshima when the u.s. dropped their Atom bombs. Why I have had access to medicine during all my life, while others didn't. I was born in a western world, without persecution to Christians. If I were born in North Korea, from Christian parents, most probably I would spend all my life in a prison camp with suffering and little food and easy death.
In the lottery of life, I can consider myself a pretty fortunate fellow, when compared to many others. if I were born in u.s. in an Indian tribe before the white man came and brought the Gospel, I would probably worship manitu, and never know the God of the bible. I could have been born in Afghanistan by fundamentalist Muslim parents, and be raised and indoctrinated in a Madrass into the Islamic faith. One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims could maybe have converted in a later lifetime, and go to heaven, but is in hell, because his life was taken by Dahmer. But Dahmer, after committing many murders, converted shortly before he himself was murdered, and is now in heaven. How to explain? Is it just? Why is the chance to have a happy and successful life, or find the God of the Bible and access to know the gospel and salvation through Christ on earth not equal?
Some religions offer an explanation: In spiritism and eastern religions, it's by reincarnation. Upon their explanation, we pay for sins committed in previous lifes. There are questions which eventually one or the other can try and give a guessed answer. Truth is, I don't know why it is so. And I think nobody knows. And I have to live with that.
Isajah 45 cites the sovereign God :
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Theodicy is the most difficult issue to deal with. But I trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is just. I humble myself to recognize the fact, that I do not know and understand the big picture. God does. And I trust that all HE does is just - amen.
Hugh Ross: Why the universe is the way it is, page 101
God’s Training Program Many people wonder why an all-loving, all-powerful Creator would subject humans to the tribulations and tragedies of this world. One partial answer may be that if evil and suffering are temporary and humans eternal, then each person’s encounters with these troubles and griefs may serve as preparation for some high reward not possible otherwise. This consideration might also imply that humans are part of God’s strategy to bring about a total and permanent triumph of good over evil. The idea that our present exposure to evil and suffering may have some higher purpose finds additional support in the uniqueness of human morality and evil. Humanity’s acknowledgment of and striving for goodness in the moral/ethical sense is not expressed in any other species. Nor is there any evidence that these characteristics naturally evolved. Artifacts and records from the most ancient civilizations indicate that people living ages ago showed the same level of concern for morality and ethics as do people today. Humanity’s capacity to commit evil also is unique. No other species, past or present, shares it. Likewise, the human propensity for evil did not gradually evolve over tens of thousands of years. Anthropological and archeological studies confirm that this capacity emerged as suddenly as humans appeared. This unprecedented concern about morality and ethics in the first humans, along with their capacity and inclination to commit evil, implies that such traits were not accidents of nature. Rather, they musthave been purposely instilled for important reasons.
The Bible teaches that God is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing. It also says that God is in complete control of everything that happens. Yet God often seems to be standing idly by while hundreds and even thousands of innocent people suffer or die from the ravages of a natural disaster. Why would a loving God who is also sovereign allow the forces of nature to shatter so many lives? First, natural disasters really are, in one sense, “acts of God.” In the context of the laws of physics and space-time dimensions, the forces behind such disasters are all designed to deliver significant benefits for humanity. For example, God could easily eradicate hurricanes. Such elimination, however, would drastically reduce the input of sea-salt aerosols[1] and bacterial and viral particles[2] into the atmosphere. That reduction would lead to a decrease in rainfall. Hurricanes also regulate tropical ocean temperatures.[3] Given the laws of physics and space-time dimensions chosen for the universe, both the frequency and the average intensity of hurricanes are set to maximally benefit humanity and human civilization. Likewise, tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanoes, wildfires, ice ages, floods, droughts, and disease are all set at levels that deliver the maximum benefit and minimum damage to humans and their civilization.[4] But humans don’t always make wise choices about where and how to build their dwellings. Second, no human being can claim true innocence before God. All have sinned (see Rom. 3:9–12). All have defied God’s authority in one way or another. All have fallen short of God’s standard of moral perfection (see Rom. 3:10–20). So while people may be “innocent” of any specific offense related to the disaster they face, they are not innocent in any absolute sense that justifies accusing God of injustice.[5] Third, God does not stand idly by. Often we’re stunned at how many people survive nature’s outbursts. We have no way to determine how catastrophic an event “might have been” apart from God’s restraint. On some occasions, it appears he miraculously intervenes to rescue people from disaster. However, if God intervened in natural calamities in an overriding way, he would abrogate their benefits, including the disciplinary benefits of physical laws and space-time dimensions. What could explain God’s “failure” to rescue all “innocent” people from criminal acts? If “good” people were never harmed by criminal acts or abusive treatment, human authorities might never take action to restrain evil or even to take evil seriously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzL8R5sIXuY&fbclid=IwAR3-RZVKE-iCembl0V7iGIFJTGsjJFpUwHL6Rlly8al40eHEyDQv7BW_2qE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pso2FLvY_WQ&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR34jzbfoyWaPjxkxz2utwBlCoMG6q7FMMJtK9JnravAuEJSV6kYtLvem-Q
1. If God exists, then there is no pointless suffering.
2. There is probably some pointless suffering. Therefore,
3. God probably does not exist.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy and good)
2. There is evil and unspeakable horrors displayed in the world
3. This is logically incompatible
Why does God allow evil and suffering in the world?
http://carm.org/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-world
Where is God When Bad Things Happen? Why Natural Evil Must Exist
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
The Bible God: Cruel, Savage, Deranged, Evil, Barbaric, Intolerant, Insanely Jealous, Vengeful and Bloodthirsty?
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1648-the-bible-god-cruel-savage-deranged-evil-barbaric-intolerant-insanely-jealous-vengeful-and-bloodthirsty
Does the Old Testament condone rape?
http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=5197
If God Is All-Powerful, Why Didn't He Create a World Without Suffering & Evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3kIj0j9oJg
John MacArthur: Why Does God Allow So Much Suffering and Evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFzk1afiD8&fbclid=IwAR3m2Vq8v-ifqJXwG-TfCFqX3G8eAwj76HOjlZcS0lYsWJU19lnBI0dEbPA
Suffering and Evil: The Probability Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxj8ag8Ntd4
Suffering and Evil: The Logical Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k64YJYBUFLM
The Problem of Evil has an “Evil” Problem
http://michaelminkoff.com/god-evil-problem-evil-problem-evil/?fbclid=IwAR0egNZ0OurgbZR_fREyh4QBlEtoBIMyy7zwjIevGIgzXtiTRqEMy5oBts8
Last edited by Otangelo on Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:21 am; edited 68 times in total
