Abiogenesis - A critique of Aron Ra's video
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2376-abiogenesis-a-critique-of-aron-ra-s-video
Uneven fossil record
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1420-uneven-fossil-record
Yet another interesting finding concerning petrified trees , is that many of them extend vertically through millions and millions of years of sedimentary rock. How can this phenomenon be explained? A common explanation is that these do not represent areas of the standard geologic column, but areas of rapid local flooding and sedimentation. Therefore, the layers that these trees pass through do not represent thousands and millions of years. However, the pictures shown to the right are of a petrified tree (located near Katherine Hill Bay next to Flat Rocks Point, Australia) extending up through many sedimentary layers and through two separated coal seams (See Video Below).4 The tree itself is twelve feet tall, and was uncovered by a coal mining company. If the two separated coal seams represent long periods of time, how could this tree be extending between them both? It seems to me that this is a difficulty for the current understanding of science. Notice also that the layers themselves show no weathering between one layer and the next even though each layer was supposedly the surface of the earth for thousands if not millions of years. These combined mysteries are more easily explained by rapid underwater burial with quickly forming sediments. The theory that each fossil bearing layer in the geologic column represents eons of time seems inadequate to explain such problems that are easily explained by a quick catastrophic event.
David Raup, paleontologist
Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin's time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find.
Stephen J. Gould, paleontologist
All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.
Simon Conway Morris, evolutionary biologist
William Buckland knew about it, Charles Darwin characteristically agonized over it, and still we do not fully understand it. “It”, of course, is the seemingly abrupt appearance of animals in the Cambrian “explosion.”
Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker
The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 500 million years, are the oldest ones which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.
So cooking chemicals can lead to life ?? haha Aronra almost convinced me.
Phospholipid bilayer created automatically by coming in contact with water ?? what nonsense......
Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM membrane. Eventually a vesicle will bud off from the ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM containing phospholipids destined for the cytoplasmic cellular membrane on its exterior leaflet and phospholipids destined for the exoplasmic cellular membrane on its inner leaflet.
The ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM cannot exist without the cell membrane. The cell membrane is however sinthesized in the ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM.
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1973-cell-membrane-endoplasmic-reticulum-irreducible-complexity-and-interdependence?highlight=membrane
Likewise the function of Enzymes and transport vesicles and all other miniscule but critical evidence within a cell , all can form through physical properties.
thats a just so assertion. Where is the evidence ? Because, in my book it says, proteins cannot form naturally, without intelligent input.
Proteins: how they provide striking evidence of design
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2062-proteins-how-they-provide-striking-evidence-of-design
A short protein molecule of 150 amino acids, the probability of building a 150 amino acids chain in which all linkages are peptide linkages would be roughly 1 chance in 10^45.
Paul Davies once said;
How did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software … ? Nobody knows …… there is no known law of physics able to create information from nothing.
The Miller Urey experiment
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2170-the-miller-urey-experiment?highlight=miller
The evidence of Urey-Miller experiment
1a. Amino Acid Synthesis (1953). When Stanley Miller produced a few amino acids from chemicals, amid a continuous small sparking apparatus, newspaper headlines proclaimed: “Life has been created!” But naturalists hide the truth: The experiment had disproved the possibility that evolution could occur.
1b. The amino acids were totally dead, and the experiment only proved that a synthetic production of them would result in equal amounts of left- and right-handed amino acids. Since only left-handed ones exist in animals, accidental production could never produce a living creature.
2. Till nowadays life could not be created in any laboratory. Therefore it must have been created by God.
3. God exists.
Panspermia, not a viable explanation for the OOL
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1362-panspermia#1926
Ross analyzed some similar research (Lawrence Livermore research team) to that of Blank and her NASA team who claimed that amino acids can survive a comet’s entrance into Earth’s atmosphere and subsequent surface impact. Ross countered this claim and argued that it presents a big problem. Ross cited that calculations and measurements show that both events generate so much heat (atmosphere = 500°+ Centigrade while the collision = 1,000°+ Centigrade) that they break down the molecules into components useless for forming the building blocks of life molecules. This was confirmed by NASA when they sent the Stardust Spacecraft to the comet 81P Wild in 2004 to recover samples, which were returned to Earth and analyzed for organic molecules. The only amino acid indisputably detected in the sample was glycine at an abundance level of just 20 trillionths of a mol per cubic centimeter
a chiral excess of isoleucine exists in GRA 95229, indicating that some mechanism must produce it. But still it is questionable if this relatively low level of chiral excess in isoleucine can explain the origin of homochirality. A 14% surplus of one enantiomer is a far cry from the 100% required for living systems. 1
[/b]
THE RNA WORLD, AND THE ORIGINS OF LIFE
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2024-the-rna-world-and-the-origins-of-life
Paul Davies The Algorithmic Origins of Life
Despite the conceptual elegance of the RNA world, the hypothesis faces problems, primarily due to the immense challenge of synthesizing RNA nucleotides under plausible prebiotic conditions and the susceptibility of RNA oligomers to degradation via hydrolysis 21 Due to the organizational structure of systems capable of processing algorithmic (instructional) information, it is not at all clear that a monomolecular system – where a single polymer plays the role of catalyst and informational carrier – is even logically consistent with the organization of information flow in living systems, because there is no possibility of separating information storage from information processing (that being such a distinctive feature of modern life). As such, digital–first systems (as currently posed) represent a rather trivial form of information processing that fails to capture the logical structure of life as we know it.
We need to explain the origin of both the hardware and software aspects of life, or the job is only half finished. Explaining the chemical substrate of life and claiming it as a solution to life’s origin is like pointing to silicon and copper as an explanation for the goings-on inside a computer. It is this transition where one should expect to see a chemical system literally take-on “a life of its own”, characterized by informational dynamics which become decoupled from the dictates of local chemistry alone (while of course remaining fully consistent with those dictates). Thus the famed chicken-or-egg problem (a solely hardware issue) is not the true sticking point. Rather, the puzzle lies with something fundamentally different, a problem of causal organization having to do with the separation of informational and mechanical aspects into parallel causal narratives. The real challenge of life’s origin is thus to explain how instructional information control systems emerge naturally and spontaneously from mere molecular dynamics.
Systems of interconnected software and hardware like in the cell are irreducibly complex and interdependent. There is no reason for information processing machinery to exist without the software, and vice versa.
No evidence that RNA molecules ever had the broad range of catalytic activities
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2243-no-evidence-that-rna-molecules-ever-had-the-broad-range-of-catalytic-activities
New findings challenge assumptions about origins of life
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1428-replicator-first-and-metabolism-first-scenarios
There is currently no known chemical pathway for an "RNA world" to transform into a "DNA/protein world."
http://phys.org/news/2013-09-assumptions-life.html#jCp
But for the hypothesis to be correct, ancient RNA catalysts would have had to copy multiple sets of RNA blueprints nearly as accurately as do modern-day enzymes. That's a hard sell; scientists calculate that it would take much longer than the age of the universe for randomly generated RNA molecules to evolve sufficiently to achieve the modern level of sophistication. Given Earth's age of 4.5 billion years, living systems run entirely by RNA could not have reproduced and evolved either fast or accurately enough to give rise to the vast biological complexity on Earth today.
OOL theorist Leslie Orgel notes that an "RNA World" could only form the basis for life, "if prebiotic RNA had two properties not evident today: a capacity to replicate without the help of proteins and an ability to catalyze every step of protein synthesis." The RNA world is thus a hypothetical system behind which there is little positive evidence, and much materialist philosophy: "The precise events giving rise to the RNA world remain unclear … investigators have proposed many hypotheses, but evidence in favor of each of them is fragmentary at best. The full details of how the RNA world, and life, emerged may not be revealed in the near future.
The hydrothermal-vent theory
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1394-the-hydrothermal-vent-theory
“It’d be like trying to make life evolve from hot Coca-Cola.” Stanley Miller of Miller-Urey experiment fame told Discover Magazine in 1992 that overall, “The vent hypothesis is a real loser. I don’t understand why we even have to discuss it.” One difficulty is that the oldest known fossils are stromatolites, clumps of bacteria from 3.5 billion years ago, which suggests that life began in shallow seas, not deep ones.
The argument follows, that perhaps life first originated in the ocean, then overtime evolved enough to come up to the surface to photosynthesize without getting burned by UVR. But even this theory has its own problems. Namely the problem of hydrolosis or “water-splitting.” The US National Academy of Sciences explains, “In water, the assembly of nucleosides from component sugars and nucleobases, the assembly of nucleotides from nucleosides and phosphate, and the assembly of oligonucleotides from nucleotides are all thermodynamically uphill in water. Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored at any plausible concentrations: polypeptide chains spontaneously hydrolyze in water, yielding their constituent amino acids,” (Luskin). Physicist Richard Morris concurs, “… water tends to break chains of amino acids. If any proteins had formed in the ocean 3.5 billion years ago, they would have quickly disintegrated,” (Morris, 167). Additionally, the cytoplasm of living cells contain essential minerals of potassium, zinc, manganese and phosphate ions. If cells manifested naturally, these minerals would need to be present nearby. But marine environments do not have widespread concentrations of these minerals (Switek). Thus, it is clear, life could not have formed in the ocean.
[/size][/b]
None of the hypotheses for the origin of life have been proven right.
Congrats for the parade of pseudo-science.
Abiogenesis is impossible
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1279-abiogenesis-is-impossible
Harold Urey, a founder of origin-of-life research, describes evolution as a faith which seems to defy logic:
“All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel that it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did.
― Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory In Crisis
“The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.”
Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 24.
“The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”
Ibid., p. 130. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/nave-html/faithpathh/hoyle.html
Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one part in 10^40,000 must be judged superior to random shuffling [of evolution]. The theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40,000 of being the correct explanation of the many curious facts discussed in preceding chapters. Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.
Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 3.
Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is insensibly different from zero.
[/b][/size][/b]
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2376-abiogenesis-a-critique-of-aron-ra-s-video
Uneven fossil record
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1420-uneven-fossil-record
Yet another interesting finding concerning petrified trees , is that many of them extend vertically through millions and millions of years of sedimentary rock. How can this phenomenon be explained? A common explanation is that these do not represent areas of the standard geologic column, but areas of rapid local flooding and sedimentation. Therefore, the layers that these trees pass through do not represent thousands and millions of years. However, the pictures shown to the right are of a petrified tree (located near Katherine Hill Bay next to Flat Rocks Point, Australia) extending up through many sedimentary layers and through two separated coal seams (See Video Below).4 The tree itself is twelve feet tall, and was uncovered by a coal mining company. If the two separated coal seams represent long periods of time, how could this tree be extending between them both? It seems to me that this is a difficulty for the current understanding of science. Notice also that the layers themselves show no weathering between one layer and the next even though each layer was supposedly the surface of the earth for thousands if not millions of years. These combined mysteries are more easily explained by rapid underwater burial with quickly forming sediments. The theory that each fossil bearing layer in the geologic column represents eons of time seems inadequate to explain such problems that are easily explained by a quick catastrophic event.
David Raup, paleontologist
Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin's time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find.
Stephen J. Gould, paleontologist
All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.
Simon Conway Morris, evolutionary biologist
William Buckland knew about it, Charles Darwin characteristically agonized over it, and still we do not fully understand it. “It”, of course, is the seemingly abrupt appearance of animals in the Cambrian “explosion.”
Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker
The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 500 million years, are the oldest ones which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.
So cooking chemicals can lead to life ?? haha Aronra almost convinced me.
Phospholipid bilayer created automatically by coming in contact with water ?? what nonsense......
Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM membrane. Eventually a vesicle will bud off from the ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM containing phospholipids destined for the cytoplasmic cellular membrane on its exterior leaflet and phospholipids destined for the exoplasmic cellular membrane on its inner leaflet.
The ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM cannot exist without the cell membrane. The cell membrane is however sinthesized in the ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM.
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1973-cell-membrane-endoplasmic-reticulum-irreducible-complexity-and-interdependence?highlight=membrane
Likewise the function of Enzymes and transport vesicles and all other miniscule but critical evidence within a cell , all can form through physical properties.
thats a just so assertion. Where is the evidence ? Because, in my book it says, proteins cannot form naturally, without intelligent input.
Proteins: how they provide striking evidence of design
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2062-proteins-how-they-provide-striking-evidence-of-design
A short protein molecule of 150 amino acids, the probability of building a 150 amino acids chain in which all linkages are peptide linkages would be roughly 1 chance in 10^45.
Paul Davies once said;
How did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software … ? Nobody knows …… there is no known law of physics able to create information from nothing.
The Miller Urey experiment
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2170-the-miller-urey-experiment?highlight=miller
The evidence of Urey-Miller experiment
1a. Amino Acid Synthesis (1953). When Stanley Miller produced a few amino acids from chemicals, amid a continuous small sparking apparatus, newspaper headlines proclaimed: “Life has been created!” But naturalists hide the truth: The experiment had disproved the possibility that evolution could occur.
1b. The amino acids were totally dead, and the experiment only proved that a synthetic production of them would result in equal amounts of left- and right-handed amino acids. Since only left-handed ones exist in animals, accidental production could never produce a living creature.
2. Till nowadays life could not be created in any laboratory. Therefore it must have been created by God.
3. God exists.
Panspermia, not a viable explanation for the OOL
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1362-panspermia#1926
Ross analyzed some similar research (Lawrence Livermore research team) to that of Blank and her NASA team who claimed that amino acids can survive a comet’s entrance into Earth’s atmosphere and subsequent surface impact. Ross countered this claim and argued that it presents a big problem. Ross cited that calculations and measurements show that both events generate so much heat (atmosphere = 500°+ Centigrade while the collision = 1,000°+ Centigrade) that they break down the molecules into components useless for forming the building blocks of life molecules. This was confirmed by NASA when they sent the Stardust Spacecraft to the comet 81P Wild in 2004 to recover samples, which were returned to Earth and analyzed for organic molecules. The only amino acid indisputably detected in the sample was glycine at an abundance level of just 20 trillionths of a mol per cubic centimeter
a chiral excess of isoleucine exists in GRA 95229, indicating that some mechanism must produce it. But still it is questionable if this relatively low level of chiral excess in isoleucine can explain the origin of homochirality. A 14% surplus of one enantiomer is a far cry from the 100% required for living systems. 1
[/b]
THE RNA WORLD, AND THE ORIGINS OF LIFE
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2024-the-rna-world-and-the-origins-of-life
Paul Davies The Algorithmic Origins of Life
Despite the conceptual elegance of the RNA world, the hypothesis faces problems, primarily due to the immense challenge of synthesizing RNA nucleotides under plausible prebiotic conditions and the susceptibility of RNA oligomers to degradation via hydrolysis 21 Due to the organizational structure of systems capable of processing algorithmic (instructional) information, it is not at all clear that a monomolecular system – where a single polymer plays the role of catalyst and informational carrier – is even logically consistent with the organization of information flow in living systems, because there is no possibility of separating information storage from information processing (that being such a distinctive feature of modern life). As such, digital–first systems (as currently posed) represent a rather trivial form of information processing that fails to capture the logical structure of life as we know it.
We need to explain the origin of both the hardware and software aspects of life, or the job is only half finished. Explaining the chemical substrate of life and claiming it as a solution to life’s origin is like pointing to silicon and copper as an explanation for the goings-on inside a computer. It is this transition where one should expect to see a chemical system literally take-on “a life of its own”, characterized by informational dynamics which become decoupled from the dictates of local chemistry alone (while of course remaining fully consistent with those dictates). Thus the famed chicken-or-egg problem (a solely hardware issue) is not the true sticking point. Rather, the puzzle lies with something fundamentally different, a problem of causal organization having to do with the separation of informational and mechanical aspects into parallel causal narratives. The real challenge of life’s origin is thus to explain how instructional information control systems emerge naturally and spontaneously from mere molecular dynamics.
Systems of interconnected software and hardware like in the cell are irreducibly complex and interdependent. There is no reason for information processing machinery to exist without the software, and vice versa.
No evidence that RNA molecules ever had the broad range of catalytic activities
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2243-no-evidence-that-rna-molecules-ever-had-the-broad-range-of-catalytic-activities
New findings challenge assumptions about origins of life
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1428-replicator-first-and-metabolism-first-scenarios
There is currently no known chemical pathway for an "RNA world" to transform into a "DNA/protein world."
http://phys.org/news/2013-09-assumptions-life.html#jCp
But for the hypothesis to be correct, ancient RNA catalysts would have had to copy multiple sets of RNA blueprints nearly as accurately as do modern-day enzymes. That's a hard sell; scientists calculate that it would take much longer than the age of the universe for randomly generated RNA molecules to evolve sufficiently to achieve the modern level of sophistication. Given Earth's age of 4.5 billion years, living systems run entirely by RNA could not have reproduced and evolved either fast or accurately enough to give rise to the vast biological complexity on Earth today.
OOL theorist Leslie Orgel notes that an "RNA World" could only form the basis for life, "if prebiotic RNA had two properties not evident today: a capacity to replicate without the help of proteins and an ability to catalyze every step of protein synthesis." The RNA world is thus a hypothetical system behind which there is little positive evidence, and much materialist philosophy: "The precise events giving rise to the RNA world remain unclear … investigators have proposed many hypotheses, but evidence in favor of each of them is fragmentary at best. The full details of how the RNA world, and life, emerged may not be revealed in the near future.
The hydrothermal-vent theory
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1394-the-hydrothermal-vent-theory
“It’d be like trying to make life evolve from hot Coca-Cola.” Stanley Miller of Miller-Urey experiment fame told Discover Magazine in 1992 that overall, “The vent hypothesis is a real loser. I don’t understand why we even have to discuss it.” One difficulty is that the oldest known fossils are stromatolites, clumps of bacteria from 3.5 billion years ago, which suggests that life began in shallow seas, not deep ones.
The argument follows, that perhaps life first originated in the ocean, then overtime evolved enough to come up to the surface to photosynthesize without getting burned by UVR. But even this theory has its own problems. Namely the problem of hydrolosis or “water-splitting.” The US National Academy of Sciences explains, “In water, the assembly of nucleosides from component sugars and nucleobases, the assembly of nucleotides from nucleosides and phosphate, and the assembly of oligonucleotides from nucleotides are all thermodynamically uphill in water. Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored at any plausible concentrations: polypeptide chains spontaneously hydrolyze in water, yielding their constituent amino acids,” (Luskin). Physicist Richard Morris concurs, “… water tends to break chains of amino acids. If any proteins had formed in the ocean 3.5 billion years ago, they would have quickly disintegrated,” (Morris, 167). Additionally, the cytoplasm of living cells contain essential minerals of potassium, zinc, manganese and phosphate ions. If cells manifested naturally, these minerals would need to be present nearby. But marine environments do not have widespread concentrations of these minerals (Switek). Thus, it is clear, life could not have formed in the ocean.
[/size][/b]
None of the hypotheses for the origin of life have been proven right.
Congrats for the parade of pseudo-science.
Abiogenesis is impossible
http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1279-abiogenesis-is-impossible
Harold Urey, a founder of origin-of-life research, describes evolution as a faith which seems to defy logic:
“All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel that it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did.
― Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory In Crisis
“The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.”
Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 24.
“The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”
Ibid., p. 130. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/nave-html/faithpathh/hoyle.html
Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one part in 10^40,000 must be judged superior to random shuffling [of evolution]. The theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40,000 of being the correct explanation of the many curious facts discussed in preceding chapters. Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.
Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 3.
Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is insensibly different from zero.
[/b][/size][/b]
