Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design
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Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design

This is my personal virtual library, where i collect information, which leads in my view to the Christian faith, creationism, and Intelligent Design as the best explanation of the origin of the physical Universe, life, and biodiversity


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Defending the Christian Worldview, Creationism, and Intelligent Design » Astronomy & Cosmology and God » The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?

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Otangelo


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The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ? 

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1524-the-starlight-problem-the-starlight-distance-a-problem-for-a-young-universe-interpretation

James Stroud Creationism Revisited – 2020 – A Defense of Recent Creation by an Agnostic 
Surely distant starlight must prove an old universe, right? No one disputes that the stars and galaxies are millions, even billions, of light-years away. Of course, a light year is a distance measurement that indicates how far light, traveling at its presently measured speed of 186,000 miles a second, travels in one year. So, doesn’t this prove the light needed millions and billions of years to get here? This problem assumes that the speed of light has always been the same, and that clocks have always measured time passing at the same rate in all times and places in the history of the universe. It may seem like an open and shut case, but explaining distant starlight is a task for all cosmologies, including the conventional Big Bang model. I have worked with several who have put forth scientifically sound alternative cosmological models that indicate, or at least accommodate, a young universe on the order of 6,000–10,000 years old. These models question the underlying assumptions of conventional models, such as Big Bang theories. The Big Bang theory has a light time travel problem: First of all, it should be shown at the outset that even the conventional models have to solve a distant starlight problem. The problem is called the “horizon” problem. The unavoidable singularity poses serious problems for cosmologists. In particular, it sits uneasily with the high degree of homogeneity and isotropy that the universe exhibits on large scales. For the cosmos to look broadly the same everywhere, some kind of communication had to pass among distant regions of space, coordinating their properties. But the idea of such communication contradicts the old cosmological paradigm. In the big bang model, the universe began with a small point called a singularity, which then expands rapidly. Before expansion, this model requires that different regions of the universe started with very different temperatures, yet today we can detect electromagnetic radiation coming from great distances all over the known universe, and this radiation shows that the temperature is very uniform in all places. But how did this happen between regions that are now billions of light years apart? This could happen only by these regions exchanging electromagnetic heat and light energy until the temperature is uniform. This is what happens when an ice-cold glass of water comes to room temperature if we wait long enough. Electromagnetic energy traveling at the current speed of light would not have had time to even out the temperature for points billions of light years apart, since they would have to have exchanged light and heat energy many times. This is why inflation theory was brought in to save the big bang model from this horizon problem. Inflation theory, which actually has no convincing supporting evidence, has the universe expanding slower at first, which supposedly allowed the temperature differences to smooth out before a rapid, explosive inflation after that. As of 2020, there is no known cause for inflation, nor a mechanism to stop it. Therefore, the Big Bang’s starlight travel time problem remains, so one cannot dismiss a YEC biblical chronology a priori. 

Sciencedan “If the Universe is 13 Billion Years Old, why is its Temperature Uniform?” October 10, 2011
So what did Big Bang theorists do when confronted with this problem? Well, they were forced to propose an explanation that was not based on any observations and cannot be fully explained in our current understanding of physics: inflation. Inflation is the hypothesis that at 10^-36 seconds after the Big Bang, the universe expanded in size by a factor of about 10^78 (that’s 10 million billion billion billion…[8 “billions” total]) in only about 10^-33 seconds! Before the inflation occurred (i.e., when the universe was very small and heat had less distance to cover), the temperature of the universe became uniform. Thus, when inflation stopped, all of the regions were already in thermal equilibrium. Alan Guth, a cosmologist from MIT, is perhaps the foremost pioneer of this concept, which he outlines in his book The Inflationary Universe. If this hypothesis is correct, it would solve the “horizon problem.” However, inflation has some problems of its own. Not only do we not understand the physical mechanism that would start the inflation, but we also do not know how inflation would stop (known as the “graceful exit” problem). To solve some of the problems introduced by the horizon problem, cosmologists have even proposed radical ideas such as a drastic change in the speed of light (also see here). The point is, the horizon problem is still a problem for the Big Bang, and its supposed solution, “inflation,” is also poorly understood.

The Big Bang Theory (based on an old age for the universe) has the problem of how to even out the temperature of the universe in the time available. Thus, the Big Bang (which most people accept) has the same problem that most people seem to think the young-earth creation model has! So how can those who accept an old universe/Earth criticize young-earth Biblical creationists for the same problem that their own model has? It is neither scientific nor honest to do so. If someone asks you, “How can we see light from distant stars if the earth is young?”, then ask, “If the Big Bang is true, how did the temperature of the universe become uniform in 13.7 billion years?” So what about the fact that we can see stars that are billions of light-years away? Is that a valid objection against a young earth and the Bible? 
https://scienceandevidence.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/horizon/

Andreas Albrecht A time varying speed of light as a solution to cosmological puzzles 2 Nov 1998
https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9811018

Stuart Clark Cosmic uncertainty: Is the speed of light really constant? 1 March 2017
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23331150-200-cosmic-uncertainty-is-the-speed-of-light-really-constant/#ixzz6zguV1pE5

The universe's ultimate speed limit seems set in stone. But there's good reason to believe it might once have been faster – and may still be changing now The speed of light in a vacuum is the ultimate cosmic speed limit. Just getting close to it causes problems: the weird distortions of Einstein’s relativity kick in, so time slows down, lengths go up, masses balloon and everything you thought was fixed changes. Only things that have no mass in the first place can reach light speed – photons of light being the classic example. Absolutely nothing can exceed this cosmic max. We have known about the special nature of light speed since an experiment by US physicists Albert Michelson and Edward Morley in the 1880s. They set two beams of light racing off, one parallel and one at right angles to the direction of Earth’s rotation, assuming the different relative motions would mean the light beams would travel at different speeds – only to find the speed was always the same.

Joshua Sokol Weird energy beam seems to travel five times the speed of light 22 May 2017
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131889-weird-energy-beam-seems-to-travel-five-times-the-speed-of-light/#ixzz6zgvWYrLQ

Please welcome to the stage a master illusionist. An energy beam that stabs out of galaxy M87 like a toothpick in a cocktail olive is pulling off the ultimate magic trick: seeming to move faster than the speed of light. Almost five times faster, in fact, as measured by the Hubble Space Telescope. This feat was first observed in 1995 in galaxy M87,  and has been seen in many other galaxies since. It might have you questioning your entire reality. Nothing can break the cosmic speed limit, right? You can’t just flaunt the laws of physics… can you?

Stephen Battersby Faster-than-light 'tachyons' might be impossible after all 18 March 2009
Faster-than-light particles, or “tachyons”, may be fundamentally impossible, according to two mathematical physicists. If they’re right, their new theory would also imply that time – seemingly one of the most fundamental facets of nature – is no more than a mirage. Although it is commonly believed that Einstein’s theory of relativity says nothing can go faster than light, that is not quite true. Relativity does forbid ordinary matter from ever reaching the speed of light, because it would require infinite energy. But the theory does not rule out a realm of particles that can only travel faster than light. Named “tachyons” by physicists in the 1960s, these subatomic speedsters would actually need an infinite amount of energy to slow down to the crawl of light-speed. Tachyons crop up as possibilities in several speculative physical theories, such as some versions of string theory. Physicists have searched for their expected signatures. If they are among the high-energy particles that hit Earth from space, tachyons would produce a signal similar to cosmic rays – except that they would reach ground-based detectors ahead of the secondary particles they created in the atmosphere.  No tachyons have ever been detected, however, and now James Wheeler and Joseph Spencer of Utah State University think they know why.

Abstract space
Their line of reasoning is subtle. “We’ve been embroiled in this calculation for one-and-a-half years,” says Wheeler. The pair wanted to understand how physical models are related to the measurements we make. They started by imagining a universe that only has distances, with no time dimension. The simplest measurement in this universe is to compare two distances: and a one-metre stick should be half the length of a two-metre stick, no matter what your point of view, whether you look from a different angle or a different place. All these points of view form a more complex abstract space, the “space of measurement symmetries”.

Light cone
Mathematically, this turns out to look a lot like “phase space”, which is at the heart of quantum mechanics and other physical theories. Phase space describes not only the position of an object, but also its momentum – loosely, the object’s trajectory. In their model, all the trajectories get bundled up into two cones meeting at a point. It looks like one set of trajectories coming in from the past, passing through a point at the present, and heading out again into the future. Something equivalent to time has emerged. In fact, this bundle of trajectories mimics the “light cone” of relativity, traced out by the paths in space-time of particles travelling up to and including the speed of light. The light cone also divides past from future. In relativity, it is possible to conceive of tachyons, travelling outside the light cone. But in Wheeler and Spencer’s model, that is inconceivable, since the cone is actually defined by the set of all possible trajectories.

Emerging time
Why should their complicated space of symmetries have any relevance to the “real” space and time that we inhabit? The reason is that it links timeless space to something like our familiar space-time, meaning that these two descriptions are equivalent. Any events that can be described in the space-time picture can be modelled just as well by a structure in timeless space. The consequences could be profound. The timeless space can’t change, so that could mean that our universe is deterministic, with the future set in stone. Wheeler suspects that our perceived “time” corresponds to the distance from a special point in the four-dimensional timeless space he modelled. If so, that point might mark the apparent beginning of time at the big bang. Mathematician Shahn Majid of Queen Mary, University of London, also works on the question of how time could emerge from timelessness. He believes that Wheeler and Spencer’s result is limited, because it depends on a particular mathematical approach. But he doesn’t dismiss the work. “It’s suggestive, and gives the right answer [that time emerges],” he told New Scientist. “And there are now several approaches to this question, which could all tie up. There seems to be an emerging theory of emerging time.”
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16796-faster-than-light-tachyons-might-be-impossible-after-all/#ixzz6zgw7Joji

James T. Wheeler The Existence of Time  October 26, 2018
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0811.0112.pdf

As modern astronomers now know, pretty much all galaxies have a central black hole that periodically draws in stars and gas clouds. When gas begins to swirl down the drain, it heats up and magnetic fields focus some of it into jets of hot plasma. These jets shoot out at velocities near to – but not faster than – the speed of light.

Light’s constant, finite speed is a brake on our ambitions of interstellar colonisation. Our galaxy is 100,000 light years across, and it is more than four years’ light travelling time even to Proxima Centauri, the closest star to the sun and home, possibly, to a habitable planet rather like Earth. Then again, if the speed of light were infinite, massless particles and the information they carry would move from A to B instantaneously, cause would sit on top of effect and everything would happen at once. The universe would have no history and no future, and time as we understand it would disappear. We wouldn’t like a universe like that.

The horizon problem - why does the universe look the same in all directions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrbSOFIdnk

Natural or Supernatural? There are underlying assumptions in conventional models that the processes and rates observed today were always in operation in the past based on uniformitarianism. There is also an upfront exclusion of the possibility of a supernatural creation event, where different processes and rates were brought into play. If we assume instead that a creation event really happened, then there would have been processes that don’t happen today, operating at much faster rates than we see today. We can’t argue that a supernatural explanation is wrong because something can’t be explained by natural means. This is faulty reasoning and exclusion of the supernatural on philosophical grounds, as I meticulously break down in The Philosophy of History, so I find it question-begging when OEC theorists criticize YEC cosmologies for not being scientific enough. If one is a Christian, then they would agree with a supernatural beginning; the OEC must be careful to not just be an OE (old earth “non” creationist) or they will simply be a naturalist. See my point? Let’s look at alternative cosmological models that have been proposed to deal with the distant starlight problem.

Does Distant Starlight prove a billions-of-years-old universe? part 6 of series
How about this one: Surely distant starlight must prove an old universe.  No one disputes that the stars and galaxies are very distant, millions and even billions of light-years away.   Of course, a light-year is a distance measurement that indicates how far light, traveling at its presently measured speed of 186,000 miles a second, travels in one year.  So doesn’t this prove the light needed millions and billions of years to get here?

This problem assumes that the speed of light has always been the same and that clocks have always measured time passing at the same rate in all times and places in the history of the universe.  It may seem like an open and shut case, but actually, as we shall see, explaining distant starlight is a task for all cosmologies, including the conventional Big Bang model. I want to make everyone aware of the work of many physicists and astronomers who have put forth scientifically sound alternative cosmological models that indicate or at least accommodate a young universe, on the order of 6,000-10,000 years old.  These models question some of the underlying assumptions of the conventional models such as the big bang theory.

The Big Bang theory has a light time travel problem:
It should be shown at the outset that even the conventional models have to solve a distant starlight problem.  The problem is called the “horizon” problem.  In the big bang model, the universe began with a small point called a singularity, which then expands rapidly.  Before expansion, this model requires that different regions of the universe started with very different temperatures, yet today we can detect electromagnetic radiation coming from great distances all over the known universe, and this radiation shows that the temperature is very uniform in all places.  But how did this happen between regions that are now billions of light years apart?  This could happen only by these regions exchanging electromagnetic heat and light energy until the temperature is uniform.  This is what happens when an ice-cold glass of water comes to room temperature if we wait long enough.  Electromagnetic energy traveling at the current speed of light would not have had time to even out the temperature for points billions of light-years apart since they would have to have exchanged light and heat energy many times. This is why inflation theory was brought in to save the big bang model from this horizon problem.  Inflation theory, which actually has no convincing supporting evidence, has the universe expanding slower at first, which supposedly allows the temperature differences to smooth out before there is a rapid, explosive inflation after that.  As can be seen in the referenced articles, in 2020, there is no known cause for this inflation, nor a mechanism for stopping it, as well as other problems. Therefore, the big bang’s starlight travel time problem remains, and so one cannot dismiss the Biblical chronology in favor of the conventional one.

Natural or Supernatural?:
There are underlying assumptions in conventional models that the processes and rates observed today were always in operation in the past-called uniformitarianism.  There is also an upfront exclusion of the possibility of a supernatural creation event, where different processes and rates were brought into play.  If we assume instead that a creation event really happened, then there would have been processes that don’t happen today, operating at much faster rates than we see today.  We can’t argue that a supernatural explanation is wrong because something can’t be explained by natural means.  This is simply circular reasoning and exclusion of the supernatural on philosophical grounds.

Is the speed of light constant?
Modern physics rests on the foundational notion that the speed of light is a constant, which in a vacuum is 186,000 miles per second (299,792 km/s). Einstein established this within his theory of general relativity, first developed in 1906 when he was just 26 years old. But what if it doesn’t? A few albeit controversial incidents in recent years challenge the idea that light always travels at a constant speed. And in fact, we’ve known for a long time that there are several phenomena that travel faster than light, without violating the theory of relativity. For instance, whereas traveling faster than sound creates a sonic boom, traveling faster than light creates a “luminal boom.” Russian scientist Pavel Alekseyevich Cherenkov discovered this in 1934, which won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1958. Cherenkov radiation can be observed in the core of a nuclear reactor. When the core is submerged in water to cool it, electrons move through the water faster than the speed of light, causing a luminal boom. On another front, while no particle with mass can travel faster than light, the fabric of space can and does. According to Inflation Theory, immediately after the Big Bang, the universe doubled in size and then doubled again, in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second, much faster than the speed of light. More recently, astronomers have discovered that some galaxies, the distant ones anyway, move away from us faster than light speed, supposedly, pushed along by dark energy. The best estimate for the rate of acceleration for the universe is 68 kilometers per second per megaparsec. By now, instrumentation had improved to the point where the CMB can be successfully probed. As such, in 2016 João Magueijo and Niayesh Afshordi published another paper, this time in the journal Physical Review D. They are currently measuring different areas of the CMB, and studying the distribution of galaxies, seeking clues to support their claim that light in the universe’s earliest moments broke free of its presumed speed limit. Again, this is a fringe theory. And yet, the implications are astounding. “The whole of physics is predicated on the constancy of the speed of light,” Magueijo told Vice’s Motherboard. “So we had to find ways to change the speed of light without wrecking the whole thing.” Their calculations should be complete by 2021.

PHILIP PERRY Is the speed of light slowing down? 25 March, 2018
Several things in nature go faster than the speed of light, without challenging general relativity. We've known for a long time that there are several phenomena that travel faster than light, without violating the theory of relativity. On another front, while no particle with mass can travel faster than light, the fabric of space can and does. According to Inflation Theory, immediately after the Big Bang, the universe doubled in size and then doubled again, in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second, much faster than the speed of light. Another breakthrough study in 2015 further challenged this staple of science. Scottish physicists from Glasgow and Heriot-Watt universities successfully slowed a photon at room temperature, without refraction. They basically built a racetrack for photons. It was made so that two photons raced side-by-side. One track was unencumbered. The other held a “mask” which resembled a target with a bullseye. In the center was a passageway so narrow, the photon had to change shape to squeeze through. It slowed that photon down about one micron (micrometer), not a lot, but enough to prove that light doesn’t always travel at a constant speed.
https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/is-the-speed-of-light-slowing-down

New Scientist ran an article in 2017 titled, “Is the Speed of Light really constant?”  

Stuart Clark Cosmic uncertainty: Is the speed of light really constant? 1 March 2017
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23331150-200-cosmic-uncertainty-is-the-speed-of-light-really-constant/#ixzz6zguV1pE5

They discussed in great detail why there was reason to believe the speed of light may have been faster in the past. Some of the research is interesting, but I have not seen anything convincing yet for the YEC position. Perhaps when they finish their calculations next year we will know more, but it seems that trying to build a case based on the change of light speed is a like building a foundation uponsand; therefore, I am compelled to believe that the speed of light is constant until it is shown to be otherwise. Let’s look at YEC models that have taken this problem more seriously to see if they are viable

Dr. Jason Lisle – The Anisotropic Synchrony Convention Model: 
Astrophysicist Dr. Jason Lisle (whom we referenced earlier) has refined, or redefined another way to potentially explain the distant starlight problem. He acknowledges the value of the previous models but also suggests that the time for starlight to get to Earth depends on the convention one uses to measure time. His model is called the Anisotropic Synchrony Convention (ASC) over that of the Einstein Synchrony Convention (ESC) which is the standard use in most physics’ textbooks today. In a nutshell, the standards ESC defines the occurrence of an event at a past moment in time allowing for the finite speed of light; ASC in contrast is saying the ESC is an unprovable assumption so the ASC instead defines the occurrence of an event at the moment it is observed. To keep it simple, a Synchrony convention is a procedure used for synchronizing clocks that are separated by a distance. This theory is based on the fact that the speed of light in one direction, that is the one-way speed of light, actually cannot be objectively measured. What is measured in experiments is the round-trip speed of light, using mirrors to reflect the light back. So, it is possible that the one-way speed of light could actually be instantaneous, even though the round-trip two-way speed of light is constant. Lisle explains why we can’t measure one-way speed of light in: “In order to avoid assuming the time for one-way speed of light, we need to be able to measure the one-way trip. But it is impossible because moving a clock to the mirror may change the time on the clock.”

Dr. Jason Lisle  Distant Starlight—The Anisotropic Synchrony Convention January 1, 2010
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/starlight/distant-starlight-thesis/

Let’s look at a quick diagram from the same article that may help clarify.

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Asynch10

In other words, we are free to choose what the speed of light will be in one direction, though the “round-trip” time averaged speed is always constant. The reason that the one-way speed of light cannot be objectively measured is that you need a way to synchronize two clocks separated by a distance. But in order to synchronize two clocks separated by some distance, you have to already know the one-way speed of light. So, it cannot be done without circular reasoning. We need to have a way of synchronizing clocks to know the one-way speed of light. But we need to know the one-way speed of light in order to synchronize clocks. Einstein was well aware of this dilemma. He said, “It would thus appear as though we were moving here in a logical circle.” Einstein’s resolution to this dilemma was to suggest that the one-way speed of light is not actually a property of nature but is instead a convention— something that we may choose.”  

So, we can actually choose a convention, similar to choosing Local Time over Universal Time on Earth. Anisotropic refers to light having different speeds in different directions, as opposed to the convention Einstein used, isotropic the same speed of light in all directions. Genesis may imply the Anisotropic Synchrony Convention (ASC), since starlight was made available immediately. So, in this convention the one-way speed of light from the distant galaxies to Earth was instantaneous. It may seem unlikely that light would not have the same speed in all directions. But even though we may assume for everyday use that light speed is constant in all directions as measured by our clocks, in a relativistic universe, as we approach the speed of light, time and space no longer have absolute values independent of the observer. In his more technical article, Lisle shows that using the Einsteinian convention, with light speed in all directions the same, leads to some interesting results when we have one observer in motion relative to the other. In fact, they will get different answers as to whether some events happened at the same time, or in what order they happened. With ASC we find that two observers see the same events as simultaneous, regardless of their velocity. Lisle makes the case also that since we can choose a convention, it makes sense to see which one fits the Bible (if we are Christians especially). As we said above, light traveling very fast from the stars to Earth would fit the ASC. Also, people in most of history would not know anything about the speed of light, or lookback time and with ASC, it is not required to know the distance to an object, so ASC best preserves the clarity of Scripture. Things in space would be seen as they happen. 

Think about it – astronomers seem to use ASC when they name a supernova after the year they saw it, rather than the year they believe the light left the source. ASC is just one more possible model that depends on one’s starting assumptions rather than the observations. 

Lisle dedicates a large portion of his 2018 book The Physics of Einstein to answering the various objections to his ASC model, which shows he is not ignoring the critics, but meeting them head on, which is exactly what healthy science should necessitate.

Dr. Jason Lisle The Physics of Einstein: Black holes, time travel, distant starlight, E=mc2 2018
https://3lib.net/book/16474854/86c629

While the above YEC models are consistent with what we know of light-time and fit with an omnipotent God as described in Genesis, I prefer one that utilizes the secular presupposition that the speed of light is constant and still returns a solid model of the universe as well as being acceptable by either ASC or ESC. Time-dilation modeling is one of my favorites. It could be wrong, but the math and physics behind it are strong, and the theories show how far YEC has come since the 1980s, even if some YEC groups (and most OEC ones) don’t like it. Within this vein, I found nuclear physicist Russell Humphreys’ model the most intriguing. Though his theory has had some modifications since his original book Starlight and Time in 1994, he was the first to take both the Bible and physics seriously while thinking outside the box. He teamed up with Australian physicist John Hartnett, and they helped mold a model of cosmology from a YEC perspective that continues to grow and be refined today.  

Humphreys has made scientific predictions (against NASA scientists) based on his recent creation model, and his predictions were verified when Voyager II measured Uranus and Neptune’s magnetic field in 1990. In 2008, and 2011, when probes measured Mercury’s magnetic field, they were able to confirm Humphreys’ YEC modeling. The predictions dealt with (1) the magnitude and dynamics of planetary magnetic fields, (2) the existence of a cosmic rotation axis, and (3) diffusion of helium through zircons. These predictions are in accord with a young earth interpretation of Genesis 1. In each case, subsequent studies showed the predictions were correct.

Sciencedan Earth’s Magnetic Field: More Successful Predictions of the Young-Earth Model November 24, 2015
The young-earth model of planetary magnetic fields based on the Bible and developed by Humphreys is consistent with current observations of the moon and planets’ magnetic fields.  In addition, it has predicted certain data accurately before they were measured.  In contrast, the old-earth dynamo model has incorrectly predicted the existence/non-existence and strength of some of the planets’ magnetic fields.  Clearly, the young-earth model for planetary magnetic fields is a much stronger scientific hypothesis than the old-earth model.  Once again, the data fit the young-earth view better than the old-earth view.
https://scienceandevidence.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/magnetic/

I admit that OEC views seem stronger from a naturalistic understanding of starlight and time, but since a growing number of secularists reject naturalism, I believe Christians are free to use the Bible as a litmus test before swallowing everything a concordist view offers. Either way, YEC theory is growing quickly in scope and plausibility. AIG’s Danny Faulkner was made to look outdated by Hugh Ross and other cosmologists in their debate several years ago, yet AIG still criticizes time-dilation models for not being orthodox enough.

Lee Anderson, Jr. Time Dilation Cosmological Models: Exegetical and Theological Considerations September 6, 2017
Concerning time dilation cosmological models, the foregoing considerations of the exegetical and theological evidence suggests they should be discarded. If they are promoted, it should be with open admission of their exegetical and theological shortcomings.
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/starlight/time-dilation-cosmological-models-exegetical-and-theological-considerations

Russell Humphreys’ Cosmological Model

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Humphr10
In late May 2011, Physorg reported on a paper by Alon Retter and Shlomo Heller, suggesting that a known gamma-ray burst GRB 060614 might have been a white hole (which are the theoretical opposite of black holes)…. Nature publication even commented, “This is brand new territory; we have no theories to guide us.” …If indeed the gamma-ray burst GRB 060614 can be shown to be associated with a white hole, the universe has just become became a more interesting place. A whitehole/blackhole relationship could act as a type of wormhole or be one-directional

Deborah Byrd Have We Seen A White Hole?  May 27, 2011
White holes are the theoretical opposite of black holes. As black holes draw in surrounding stars, dust, passing spaceships – whatever comes too near – so white holes, by definition, would radiate light.
https://earthsky.org/space/have-we-seen-a-white-hole/

I reviewed various theories over the years, including fellow Logos Research Associate Russell Humphreys’ White Hole Cosmology, and though I feel YEC theory is moving in the right direction, with some great research paralleled off Genesis, there is still more work needed. My own interest in astronomy, coupled with the gamma-ray burst 060614 (GRB) of 2006, led to my increased interest in white hole cosmological models, including parallels with the concepts of cosmological relativity of the late Moshe Carmeli. 

N. Gehrels A new γ-ray burst classification scheme from GRB 060614 21 December 2006
https://sci-hub.ren/10.1038/nature05376

A recent physics lecture by Sam Gralla at the University of Arizona substantiated much of Humphreys’ cosmology and admitted that current Big Bang cosmology cannot show where the heavy elements came from, what powers gamma-ray bursts, how matter at nuclear density behaves, or how fast black holes can spin, all of which OEC theorists and secularists often falsely claimed are solved. I look forward to hosting Dr. Humphreys’ speaking engagements at several universities in the Summer of 2020, where we will invite physics and astronomy departments to critique our work. 

Since 1979, Humphreys worked for Sandia National Laboratories…in nuclear physics, geophysics, pulsed-power research, and theoretical atomic and nuclear physics. Since 1985, he has been working with Sandia’s Particle Beam Fusion Project, and was co-inventor of special laser-triggered “Rimfire” high-voltage switches, now coming into wider use. [The last decade at Sandia saw] greater emphasis on theoretical nuclear physics and radiation hydrodynamics in an effort to help produce the world’s first lab-scale thermonuclear fusion. Besides gaining [two other U.S. patents, Dr Humphreys] has been given two awards from Sandia, including an Award for Excellence for contributions to light ion fusion target theory.

In 1994, Russell Humphreys applied the principle of time-dilation to propose a creationist cosmology that would replace the Big Bang. Humphreys derived his new cosmology from the equations of general relativity, replacing the secular assumptions of Big Bang theory with more biblically based ones. A finite universe without boundaries can be represented in two dimensions by the surface of a balloon. An insect crawling on its surface would never encounter a center or an edge, even though the surface is not infinitely large. The quantization of red shifts suggests that distance galaxies are arranged in concentric shells around the Milky Way. In reality, the situation is more complex than this because several different distance intervals exist between the galaxies. Humphreys’ theory not only provides the first outline of a creationist cosmology, but also, in principle at least, a solution to the long-standing puzzle of how light from distant stars and galaxies reached the Earth within the biblical time frame. 

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  D_russ11
Consider the beginning of the universe (space/time/matter). At the center point, time could theoretically travel much slower, almost at a standstill. If our galaxy was near this center point, it would be plausible for the distant universe to be billions of years old while the equivalent of just days passed on the earth. Time has never been a constant or an absolute, as Einstein discovered a century ago. Time would in essence stand-still below the event horizon as the universe/space/time came into being

Dr Humphreys responds to criticism of his book Starlight and Time
https://creation.com/dr-humphreys-responds-to-criticism-of-his-book-starlight-and-time

Humphreys’ white-hole cosmology shows that gravitational effects in the early universe could have allowed starlight to travel the required distances while only a short time passed as measured by Earth-based clocks. As with any new theory, Humphreys’ cosmology has come in for criticism and modification, and it is unclear whether his version of the theory will survive the challenge of scientific and biblical analysis. Other creationists have been developing their own time-dilation theories to deal with some of the perceived weaknesses in Humphreys’ initial work, while at the same time Hugh Ross declined to debate Humphreys.  

D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. Physics Hugh Ross Avoids Debating Russ Humphreys … Again  MARCH 20, 2003
https://www.icr.org/article/hugh-ross-avoids-debating-russ-humphreys-again/

This area of origins research is where creationist contributions are being formulated and debated. Such research shows that it is possible to develop new theories of the universe that incorporate information from both Scripture and our scientific observations. They demonstrate that the Bible can guide our scientific thinking and suggest innovative avenues of enquiry

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  White_10
Whether the beginning of our universe was a white-hole or simply acted like a white-hole (mathematically), this would show the time dilation models that Humphreys has spent the last 30 years on are going in the right direction. Moreover, they are mathematically sound and completely YEC based

The BIG Bang-Bit Bang - Supermassive White Hole
http://bigbangbitbang.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-big-bangbit-bang.html

White hole cosmology is more than a solution to the problem of distant star light; it can serve as a respectable creation cosmology. In this cosmology, the universe would only be thousands of years old, according to a clock on Earth, but according to a clock at the edge of the universe, it would be billions of years old.

Danny Faulkner Universe by Design

https://3lib.net/book/2345750/97c29c

The key to this model is the idea that time ran slower on Earth than in distant parts of the universe on Day 4 of Creation. Likewise, it relies on presuppositions from the Big Bang, which are based in current scientific trends, but most importantly, are purely biblical in nature, which is vital to provide for a model based on recent creationism. Essentially, God used relativity to let us see a young universe. This solution to the distant starlight problem is both scientifically and biblically sound. The main problem is that it is difficult to test, as are all cosmological models.

D. Russell Humphreys Russell Humphreys answers Various Critics 2021
https://www.trueorigin.org/ca_rh_03.php

Standard big bang cosmology assumes that the universe has no center and no edge, with matter filling all of space, and since there would be no boundary and empty space around the matter, there would be no unique center or center of mass, and no net gravitational force since all galaxies would be surrounded by an even distribution of other galaxies. What many people don’t realize is that this is a purely arbitrary assumption, not required by the scientific evidence, but based on the idea that Earth has no special place in the cosmos such as in or near the center (Copernican Principle). What’s ironic is that the standard model is always shown to be both bounded and with a center and edge (as the above diagrams show); but this is denied by both big bang theorist as well as OEC (or they simply do not understand this point). Ironic that Humphreys’ model more accurately describes what we see anytime we look at these various big bang models in diagram form.

Hawking and Ellis comment on the reason for it: “…we are not able to make cosmological models without some admixture of ideology. In the earliest cosmologies, man placed himself at the center of the universe. Since the time of Copernicus, we have been demoted to a medium sized planet going around a medium sized star on the outer edge of a fairly average galaxy…. We would not claim our position in space is specially distinguished in any way.”

John G. Hartnett A new cosmology: solution to the starlight travel time problem August 2003
A new model, of a type similar to Humphreys’, has been described that allows billions of years to pass in the cosmos but only 24 hours on Earth during Day 4. In this model, the laws of physics are suspended while creation is in progress and enormous time dilation occurs between Earth clocks and astronomical clocks. This solves the light-travel-time problem faced by creationist cosmology and makes all astronomical evidence fit the Genesis account. No non-physical requirements are placed on the model.
https://creation.com/a-new-cosmology-solution-to-the-starlight-travel-time-problem

Notice that they call this principle an “admixture of ideology”. That is, they start up front with the idea that the creation account is false, and that man has no special place in the cosmos. This does not come from observable evidence but from a philosophical conclusion that we are the result of random processes and not from a Creator with a special purpose and place for us. The only physical evidence secularists point out is that the universe is isotropic, that is, it looks about the same in every direction. On the other hand, the creation account in Genesis implies that the universe does have a center (Gen 1:2) from which God causes the expansion of the universe outward from the center of a large mass. And there is good scientific data that indicates the universe may have a center of mass after all. We also get from relativity theory that gravity affects clocks. A clock at high altitude runs faster than a clock at a lower elevation. This has been verified experimentally many times. This is because the clock at the lower altitude is deeper into the “gravitational well” of the Earth. The deeper into a gravitational well, the more the clocks slow down. So, when someone asks, how long did it take starlight to get here, we need to ask, “whose clocks?” Although this time dilation effect, as it is called, is not much today even for clocks far out into space, there is evidence that the universe has expanded greatly, and when it was much smaller time would have run much faster at the edge of the universe than in the center, which would be deep into the universe’s “gravitational well.” All these effects fall out using the same equations for General Relativity as the standard model. In this model light from distant stars would have plenty of time to reach earth where clocks would have been running slower. So, what effect makes this possible?

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Gravit11
Here we see an atomic clock placed at a high vs low altitude suffers enough time dilation to change time itself by about 5 microseconds. Time dilation occurs in space based on the mass of an object and its relation to space.

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Gravit12
If the universe has a center, then there is a gravitational center of mass. If the universe has expanded, then at one time in the past there was the same amount of matter as today but packed into a smaller space. If the universe was smaller by a factor of fifty, as referenced by Humphreys…relativity allows it to either be inside a black hole or a white hole. All the matter would be contained inside what is called the event horizon of a black hole, the event horizon being where time is greatly slowed or stopped. But black holes do not expand. However, General Relativity allows for a white hole, which reverses the events, and unlike a black hole which holds everything in, the white hole requires that light and matter inside the event horizon expand out, and as they do, the event horizon shrinks in diameter. So, if you have a bounded universe, that has expanded, General Relativity indicates you have a white hole.

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  White_11
Since time would stand still below the event horizon, as the event horizon got smaller, it would eventually reach earth at the center, on day 4 if we go by the creation account, and while clocks were running fast in the distant universe, they would be stopped or running very slowly on Earth. So, you would see distant objects in the universe age billions of years, and light would have plenty of time to reach Earth. This may sound far-fetched, but it is theoretically sound

John G. Hartnett A new cosmology: solution to the starlight travel time problem August 2003
https://creation.com/a-new-cosmology-solution-to-the-starlight-travel-time-problem

In 2007 Humphreys made some further modifications and came up with a modified version of the original model. He explains in this excerpt from his article referenced below:

In November of 1915 Albert Einstein published the crowning conclusion of his General Theory of Relativity: a set of sixteen differential equations describing the gravitational field. Solutions to these equations are called metrics, because they show how distance-measuring and time-measuring devices (such as rulers and clocks) behave. The equations are so difficult to solve that new metrics, giving solutions under specific conditions, now appear only once every decade or so. Metrics are foundational; they open up new ways to understand space and time. For example, the first metric after Einstein’s work, found by Karl Schwarzschild in 1916, not only explained the detailed orbits of planets, but also pointed to the possibility that black holes might exist. In the fall of 2007, I published a new metric as part of an explanation of the ‘Pioneer anomaly’, a decades-old mystery about the slowing-down of distant spacecraft. Compared to many modern metrics, the new one is rather simple. It describes space and time inside an expanding spherical shell of mass. I was interested in that problem because of the ‘waters that are above the heavens’ that Psalm 148:4 mentions as still existing today above the highest stars. The waters would be moving outward along with the expansion of space mentioned in 17 Scripture passages. 

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Scient12
A moving clock measures the spacetime interval ds between two events.

The total mass of the shell of waters is greater than 8.8 × 10^52 kg, more than 20 times the total mass of all the stars in all the galaxies the Hubble Space Telescope can observe. However, because the area of the shell is so great, more than 2 × 10^53 m2 , the average areal density of the shell is less than 0.5 kg/m2 . By now the shell must have thinned out to a tenuous veil of ice particles, or perhaps broken up into planet-sized spheres of water with thick outer shells of ice. It is only the waters’ great total mass that has an effect on us, small but now measurable. Because of the great mass of the ‘waters above’, I could neglect the smaller mass of all the galaxies in deriving the metric. Although other distributions of mass could also solve the Pioneer mystery, this one seems more applicable to biblical cosmology. Being relatively simple, the new metric clarifies a new type of time dilation that was implicit in previous metrics but obscured by the effects of motion. This new type, which I call achronicity, or ‘timelessness’, affects not only the narrow volume of space at or just around an ‘event horizon’ (the critical radius around a black hole at which time stops), but all the volume within the horizon. Within an achronous region, we will see, time is completely stopped. I pointed out a related effect, ‘signature change,’ in an earlier paper, but all I had to go on then was an older metric, the Klein metric, which was quite complicated. The complexity obscured what that metric suggested could happen to time. The cosmology this paper outlines is a new one that does not stem from the Klein metric.”

The new metric Humphreys derived in 2007 has yielded interesting results. One is a straightforward explanation of the Pioneer anomaly

Flaw in creationist solution to the Pioneer anomaly?  11 May 2013
https://creation.com/pioneer-anomaly-heat

In this paper, it has revealed a new type of time dilation, achronicity. The fundamental cause of achronicity appears to be that gravitational potential becomes so negative that the total energy density of the fabric of space becomes negative. That stops the propagation of light, all physical processes, and all physical clocks, thus stopping time itself. Humphreys has examined the effect only for essentially motionless bodies (having velocities very much less than that of light). He hopesto explore some of the interesting and possibly useful effects of achronicity for non-negligible particle velocities in the near future. The speculative scenario in the previous two sections shows how useful achronicity could be in creation cosmology. Other scenarios are easily possible, and Humphreys hopes that other creationists making alternative cosmologies will find timelessness a good tool.”

This new model builds on Humphrey’s previous models. As he shows, it is based on a new solution (metric) of Einstein’s General Relativity equations and allows for a new type of time dilation that is an even more powerful solution to the light time travel problem. He uses the illustration of space being stretched out like a trampoline, noting that there are many Bible verses that seem to speak of space as a kind of “material” that can be stretched, rolled, etc. And modern science has a concept of “material” for space as well. As mass of stars are added, it caused the fabric of space to drop below a critical timeless zone, and then as space is then stretched, the created stars and galaxies come out of the timeless zone, and their light follows that zone all the way back to Earth, which is the last to emerge from this timeless zone. What these models show is that there are several possibilities are viable within General Relativity, depending on your beginning assumptions, and that there are several which accommodate a young universe. This model makes use of well-tested physics (GR) using alternate boundary conditions. Has the effect been significant enough to get starlight here in less than 10,000 years as YEC maintain? That of course is still to be seen. Even if Humphreys is wrong in his scientific interpretations, he has contributed significantly to cosmological studies and encouraged many others, notably Dr. John Hartnett, to further develop time-dilation models. 305 We know that presuppositions are important for the Big Bang theory, but Humphreys has  worked this through in some detail. Furthermore, he has proven that with different presuppositions, different conclusions are possible. A door has opened. Christian students of cosmology will find this research a great stimulus to their own thinking and for this, Dr. Humphreys, Hartnett, and Lisle are to be commended

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Cosmic10
While Cosmological relativity is not yet generally accepted, it is a viable theory of physics that has already been shown to naturally explain several problems in cosmology, including some it was not developed to explain. It also results in a viable young Earth cosmology when applied to a bounded universe…. Harnett has also shown that observations are consistent with a bounded universe inside a white hole with our galaxy at or near the center. This is not to be confused with Dr Humphreys’ White hole cosmology since in Hartnett's model the universe is still inside the white hole’s event horizon. However, there are obvious similarities in the two cosmologies.

Cosmological relativity
Cosmological relativity is an extension of the principles of Special and General Relativity to cosmological scales. Developed by Dr Moshe Carmeli, this theory is a combination of Einstein's original special and general relativity; however its starting point is the expansion of the Universe and not the propagation of light. It has profound results for cosmology in general and in particular Young Earth Creation cosmology. So far this theory fits all experimental findings.
http://creationwiki.org/Cosmological_relativity

Let’s do a few simple calculations based on Dr. Hartnett’s own dilation based on Humphreys’ original model. The point of reviewing cosmogonies is to glimpse some of the great work done over the last twenty-five years in YEC cosmology, which is usually recognized as the biggest weakness in the YEC position. None of the OEC groups that I have talked to have a clue about the work Humphreys and others have done.

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  Scient11
Compare the illustration of our universe from the March 2020 issue of Scientific American to a similar model from Russell Humphreys almost 15 years earlier. Both portray the universe as bounded and finite and ironically in this issue of Scientific American, they admit our current physics is insufficient to support a naturalistic model of the universe.

Ironically, the March 2020 issue of Scientific American ran a cover story on “a cosmic crisis” where Richard Panek describes the same points that Harnett has been discussing for well over a decade. Like Hartnett, Scientific American acknowledges that not only is dark energy and dark matter complete conjecture that makes up about 95% of what we know about the universe, but that we are highly in need of some type of “new physics” (or metaphysics) for us to better understand cosmology today: If the source of the Hubble tension is not in the observation of either the late universe or the early universe, then cosmologists have little choice but to pursue option three: “new physics.” For nearly a century now scientists have been talking about new physics – forces or phenomena that would fall outside our current knowledge of the universe.

Could this “new physics” fall in line with Humphreys or Hartnett’s work? Time will tell. Likewise, I recently reviewed an article by noted physicist Sean Carroll on space-time in the September 2019 edition of New Scientist, in which Carroll rightly acknowledges: 

Space-time is simply the physical universe inside which we and everything else exists. And yet, even after millennia living in it, we still don’t know what space-time actually is… We have ideas, each with its own selling points and shortcomings. How in the world can space-time exist in a superposition of different possibilities? That would make it impossible to say for sure that a certain event happened at a definite location in space and time.

Sean Carroll  What is space-time? The true origins of the fabric of reality 11 September 2019
A bold new perspective suggests space-time isn’t a fundamental entity but emerges from quantum entanglement, says physicist Sean Carroll. It is the idea that space-time emerges from a weird property of the quantum world that means particles and fields, those fundamental constituents of nature, can be connected even if they are at opposite ends of the universe. If that is correct, we might finally have found a bridge between the two irreconcilable totems of physics, placing us on the threshold of a theory of quantum gravity.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332470-500-what-is-space-time-the-true-origins-of-the-fabric-of-reality/#ixzz6zlXPskOL

I see Humphreys’ white hole cosmology as a monumental first step towards the correct understanding of the universe, but as Humphreys has acknowledged, his work was just the beginning. He hoped to encourage others to look into this new direction of creation cosmology and that, too, is my hope. Humphreys is going in the right direction if YEC groups like AIG and OEC groups have ears to hear and an open, biblical mind.



Last edited by Otangelo on Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:52 pm; edited 35 times in total

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Does Distant Starlight prove a billions-of-years-old universe? part 6 of series
The Big Bang theory has a light time travel problem:
It should be shown at the outset that even the conventional models have to solve a distant starlight problem.  The problem is called the “horizon” problem.  In the big bang model, the universe began with a small point called a singularity, which then expands rapidly.  Before expansion, this model requires that different regions of the universe started with very different temperatures, yet today we can detect electromagnetic radiation coming from great distances all over the known universe, and this radiation shows that the temperature is very uniform in all places.  But how did this happen between regions that are now billions of light years apart?  This could happen only by these regions exchanging electromagnetic heat and light energy until the temperature is uniform.  This is what happens when an ice cold glass of water comes to room temperature if we wait long enough.  Electromagnetic energy traveling  at the current speed of light would not have had time to even out the temperature for points billions of light years apart, since they would have to have exchanged light and heat energy many times. This is why inflation theory was brought in to save the big bang model from this horizon problem.  Inflation theory, which actually has no convincing supporting evidence ,{1} has the universe expanding slower at first, which supposedly allows the temperature differences to smooth out before there is a rapid, explosive inflation after that.  As can be seen in the referenced articles, there is no know cause for this inflation, nor a mechanism for stopping it, as well as other problems. Therefore, the big bang’s starlight travel time problem remains, and so one cannot dismiss the Biblical chronology in favor of the conventional one.

The Dasha Theory by Dr. Dan Faulkner:
Astronomer Dr. Dan Faulkner has come up with one alternative model which he calls the “Dasha Theory” named after the Hebrew word used in Genesis meaning “to grow” or to “bring forth” as in Genesis 1:11.  God “brought forth” the stars and their light so Adam could see them on Day 4 of creation.  Remember, creation is said to be a miraculous process, like the virgin birth of Christ, or the resurrection.  So this is a model that accommodates the supernatural.

In this model, the current laws of physics don’t come into existence until after the creation period.  The Bible speaks many times of the heavens being stretched out during creation (see Isaiah 40:22, Job 9:8,  Psalm 104:2, and over a dozen other verses).  The light from the stars could have been brought forward (dasha)  abnormally fast by a process that is undescribed, enabling it to be seen on Day 4.

Some have objected to this by pointing out that we can see supernovas-star explosions in distant galaxies and so they say this couldn’t have happened during the  creation period, since everything was pronounced “very good”.  Faulkner defends his theory by pointing out that “very good” sometimes doesn’t necessarily mean perfection-and there is no life lost in a supernova explosion.  “Very good” could simply mean fulfillment of moral good, and things doing what they are designed to do.  For more on this, Faulkner has put out a video called “The Dasha Theory”,
Does Distant Starlight prove a billions-of-years-old universe? part 6 of series

https://www.amazon.com.br/Creationism-Revisited-Defense-Creation-Agnostic-ebook/dp/B08L44VRHR

Lee Anderson, Jr. Time Dilation Cosmological Models: Exegetical and Theological Considerations September 6, 2017
Concerning time dilation cosmological models, the foregoing considerations of the exegetical and theological evidence suggests they should be discarded. If they are promoted, it should be with open admission of their exegetical and theological shortcomings.
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/starlight/time-dilation-cosmological-models-exegetical-and-theological-considerations/?fbclid=IwAR0DP2aAKCy2hjJgUKHT9MUvpxLDYIFaB_gKf4oXOKEyvg0F-YrY1zPWkJI

The idea of starlight created in transit is that it unavoidably requires that the vast majority of what we see in the heavens is not real. The starlight we see is not just a pretty pinpoint of light, but appears to show us events that have happened to that star. If those events did not actually happen because the light was created in transit, then we can't actually study the heavens at all. I think the best explanation we have for distant starlight is some form of time dilation. This is a natural result of certain types of situations that could have happened during creation. We measure time dilation all the time. It is an observed phenomenon. Larger amounts of time dilation could easily happen during the creation period. One factor that could certainly produce time dilation is a stretching of the fabric of space (i.e. stretching out the heavens). The faster you go, the slower time takes. As you approach the speed of light, time continues to slow down, AT the speed of light...time STOPS! Which means for a photon moving at the speed of light, when it is absorbed in your retina, it is the same instant it was emitted at the Big Bang 14 billion years ago.....if you are that photon, it does not experience that delay." -Neil deGrasse Tyson << Now taking this equation or theory with Richard Dawkins "theory" that "The universe and live within it APPEARS to be designed but it's not designed". Can we also say that the Universe appears to be old but it's not really old? Maybe the age of the universe is really a delusion and there is no age at all or maybe it really is a young Universe??

Robert Webb  
The starlight is no problem as the galaxies were much closer and did not form later and then send light. It is a hidden presupposition which is answered by the expansion. Light was in place already from solar systems and galaxies and during an expansion the solar systems and galaxies should be thought of like pennies on a ballon that expands. The light is already in place when originated were much closer to us. The hidden false presupposition is to measure the distance now and then calculate the speed of light instead properly calculating the original position of the earth being much, much closer and then effect of speed light during an expansion and accelerating universe. As well there is evidence the speed of light was faster in the past, possibly instantaneous and slowed down subject to the decay of the fallen universe. Humphries has dealt with this and responded to the critical reviews. 1) the one directional speed of light is unknown 2) special relativity actually suggests the speed of light "adjusts" itself relative to the speed of the source 3) inflation theory/God stretches out the heavens 4) we can't measure distance accurately beyond parallax, so distance to celestial objects is largely unknown. 5) age assumptions are based on distance assumptions and assumptions about the speed of light. There is no empirical reason to believe distance and age correlate, or to believe objects are as distant as commonly assumed.

William Barney  
When traveling at speeds near the speed of light special relativity says that time is dilated. Thus relative to another inertial frame (where perhaps a stationary twin sits) time for the moving twin is slowing down. Hence the stationary twin is aging faster. The moving twin is of course moving away. The stationary twin is stationary. So what happens when the moving twin stops and reverses moving back to the stationary twin? Will the stationary twin be older than the lightspeed twin? The answers is no. As the moving twin approaches the stationary twin the moving twin accelerates in aging while the stationary twin deaccelerates. So when the moving twin arrives they are in fact the same age. Now apply this to modern astronomy. As we measure distance and calculate time we measure light in one direction heading away. That is why we say that it would take 60 light years to reach a star. But light travels too us not away. So when calculating starlight we need to calculate light coming to the earth NOT going away because time is accelerated when photons travel to us and not away. This means that stars are much much younger than what modern cosmology generally believes. I hope I made something complicated simple and easy to understand. My trade is I am a space communications specialist. Why do scientist say the universe is ~ 13 billion years old and we can see to the edge of the known universe. There are two problems here. One the edge of the universe is ~ 47 billion years away from us, making seeing light from that distance impossible. Yet we set exposers on the Hubble telescope to capture those images of those distance galaxies. The estimate of the time of the universe is off. Second the universe is transparent. Why? most of the universe is still gaseous. And all of it is ionized meaning it should be opaque. What it says in Genesis is that the light was created, then the stars on the 4th day. If this is true, then light was created to be in route like it was an eternal display. This seems to be the case if the diameter of the universe is 96 billion light years across and there is not enough time for light from the edge to get to us. Yet we see all of the universe at every angle and direction clearly.In order for this to still work they have come up with a theory to solve the problem. It is called "inflation". This explanation says that at one point in the early part of the Big Bang matter had to have expanded rapidly and I mean so rapidly it defied a law of physics. Going faster than light itself. We know that matter cannot go faster than light because the energy needed would be greater than all the energy of the entire universe. So, science doesn't know how all these things came about, yet to explain this away they come up with theories to explain theories because they are stuck. It's a theory which will fall by the wayside like Heckle's drawings (which were a fraud), the Genesis wave(featured in Star Trek), and junk DNA(which isn't junk but functioning code), and oh so much more that Darwinian evolution has predicted yet fails to answer. Your denial of the biblical account is not true to science. Remember God created light first before the stars. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. How could this be? Well if photons can travel faster than light then they can travel faster then time. This is what was found in the experiment with the experiment done in Cern laboratories. That means that light would shine before the source became visible JUST LIKE GENESIS CLAIMS!!!!! WOW!!!!!!

Ian Sample Faster than light particles found, claim scientists 22 Sep 2011
Particle physicists detect neutrinos travelling faster than light, a feat forbidden by Einstein's theory of special relativity It is a concept that forms a cornerstone of our understanding of the universe and the concept of time – nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. But now it seems that researchers working in one of the world's largest physics laboratories, under a mountain in central Italy, have recorded particles travelling at a speed that is supposedly forbidden by Einstein's theory of special relativity. Scientists at the Gran Sasso facility will unveil evidence on Friday that raises the troubling possibility of a way to send information back in time, blurring the line between past and present and wreaking havoc with the fundamental principle of cause and effect. They will announce the result at a special seminar at Cern – the European particle physics laboratory – timed to coincide with the publication of a research paper (pdf) describing the experiment.
https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2011/sep/22/faster-than-light-particles-neutrinos

David Caldarola  
I have seen some videos reporting tests in the lab that shows fossilization can at least begin to occur in as little as six month. But here's a "kick-in -the-groin-" just for fun. A scientist calculated the quantum physics of an expanding universe to determine the fluctuations in the duration of time. Science will tell you that time is affected by gravity, and a minute on the moon is faster than on earth, and a minute on the sun is slower. So, making whatever calculations were needed, he came up with the notion that to "someone" outside of our time and space looking into the expanding universe, a process of almost 16 billion years to us, would seem like.... wait for it..... 6 days to him.

David Wilson 
Distant starlight, as you say, is not worth a thing in establishing an old earth, because gravity distorts time, and there is plenty of it in and between the island galaxies. And it is not just "how times is perceived", atomic clocks, as I mentioned, exposed to different degrees of gravitational force fall out of sync. Therefore, to know, or even have a reasonable suspicion that distant starlight can be used as a barometer for the age of the earth, you need at least two points of reference at enough of a distance, like between hundreds of galaxies, to even make a guess. But that does not mean that the mainstream scientific community won;t keep trying to have it their own way regardless of the facts-----> http://www.creationdino.blogspot.com.br/2015/09/why-culture-of-mainstream-scientific.html

Charlie Wolcott 
You mentioned star light distance. That's a problem for Old Earth as well, not just YEC. That tells me there is something wrong with the measuring tools. There's no accuracy to any of those models. You can get precision, but no accuracy.

The Universe was stretched out.
The OP assumes the Big Bang is true. Peter Berean has done a wonderful job of detailing the points of why it is logical to conclude that the Universe came into being created by a entity outside of the existing universe. The failure of the OP is to understand the very fundamental understanding that IF God used the miraculous (outside of the laws of nature as they are now known) to create the universe, then why has OEC restricted God to the miraculous only at the initial beginning, and restricted Him to the CURRENT set of physical laws from all points past the initial Big Bang event? Such logic is fundamentally flawed. He COULD have done it that way, or He COULD have chosen to CREATE beyond the INITIAL start. The bible tells us that God STRETCHED out the heavens. Thus indicating, as science seems to have confirmed that there was an initial point and time in which the creation event BEGAN. The bible indicates that God did not CREATE just in one moment, but that there were different DAYS of creation (not epochs), thus the creation was accomplished over a period of TIME. That creation would have been MIRACULOUS at each stage. When GOD created the heavens, the bible clearly tells us this was a miraculous event, that the stars themselves were set in place, "for signs, for seasons, for day, and for years". The bible also says that He named each one. The bible also says that LIGHT itself was CREATED. IF God stretched out the heavens, that would indicate that it was NOT done at a natural speed. IF God placed stars Billions of light years away, It would not make sense to create them so they would NOT be seen by His primary creation. The bible clearly says they were created to be seen. The light for those stars was “stretched” out at the same time as the rest of the universe, cleanly, elegantly, smoothly.
P1 The OP agrees that the Big Bang was a special miraculous creation by God
P2 The bible tells us this miraculous creation was accomplished not at one moment of time, but over multiple moments of time.
P3 The OP suggests that God only did the miraculous at the Big Bang Beginning, but restricted Himself to the Natural laws after that initial beginning.
P4 P3 is illogical as it affirms the miraculous in P1 and denies it in P2
P5 If the OP is true, then God would have done the initial creation 15 Billion years ago, and then sat around listening to an endless loop of the Jeopardy Tune for the last 14.99 billion years while He was waiting for the universe to unstretch itself, which is inherently illogical.
________________________________________
JOB 9:8 NKJV He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea;
JOB 37:18 NKJV With Him, have you spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?
PSALM 104:2 NKJV Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.
PSALM 146:6 NKJV Who made heaven and earth, The sea, and all that is in them; Who keeps truth forever,
ISAIAH 40:21-22 NKJV 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
ISAIAH 42:5 NKJV Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:
ISAIAH 44:24 NKJV Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
ISAIAH 45:12 NKJV I have made the earth, And created man on it. It was I- My hands that stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.
JEREMIAH 10:12 NKJV He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.
JEREMIAH 51:15 NKJV He has made the earth by His power; He has established the world by His wisdom, And stretched out the heaven by His understanding.
ZECHARIAH 12:1 NKJV The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
COLOSSIANS 1:16-17 NKJV For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
HEBREWS 1:2-3 NKJV 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged out sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
HEBREWS 11:3 NKJV By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Solutions to the starlight problem (there are more than one).
1. God created things in FUNCTIONAL MATURITY: e.g., He created chickens, not eggs. Trees, not seeds. Rivers flowing, not a tiny stream that would enlarge later. He created a MAN from the dust, not a baby that would grow. Just as the river would (as it exists) flow from (whatever origin) to (whatever destination downstream), and the trees would grow and give fruit, etc. - a finished star, visible from Earth, would have the "river of light" already in place, from its origin to its earthly destination.
That is another example of Functional Maturity. If we concede that God made Adam from DUST, and Eve from his rib, the rest of creation should not be too hard for Him. (cf. Matt. 22:29)
2. The Bible says that God STRETCHED OUT the Heavens. This is interesting. I don't recall other things being "stretched out", like a twig into a tree, a baby stretched out up to a man, and so forth.
Whatever we understand by "stretched out", it's indicating that the heavens (incl the stars) used to be closer (perhaps MUCH closer) than they are now.
They could grow, like the surface of a balloon would enlarge the size and distance of dots marked on it, if it is inflated.
That is one way to understand the "distance" problem -- the astronomical environment was created and then stretched out (regardless of how He did it). So the terribly long distances we see (or imagine?) of stars and galaxies, did not always exist. They were Stretched Out.
Please see the following verses where this is mentioned:
Job 9:8,
Is. 42:5,
Is. 44:24,
Is 45:12,
Is 51:13,
Jer 10:12,
Jer. 51:15,
Zec. 12:1
I think perhaps God is telling us, and is wanting us to understand, that He STRETCHED OUT the heavens. The implications for us may be enormous. This is in addition to other discussions about the size of the universe (now) or the "shape" of it, and other things related to this topic.
I hope some of this helps when considering the "starlight problem".
------
Matthew 22:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. A New Creationist Cosmology: In No Time at All Part 1 NOVEMBER 01, 2010
Introduction
One of the issues that concern many people who wish to adopt young-earth creationism as a valid view of earth history is the question of how stars can be seen many millions of light-years away if only a few thousand years have passed since they were created. Dr. Russell Humphreys, a previous researcher at ICR, spent years working on this problem and has developed a creationist cosmology that seems to resolve this question. On the fourth day of creation, how long did it take God to make the stars and bring their light to earth? No time at all, according to clocks here on earth. That is what Humphreys concludes from his new creationist cosmology research. The cosmology presented in his 1994 book, Starlight and Time,1 had the light getting to earth in a finite amount of time, not instantaneously. The general features of that cosmology—a universe centered upon our galaxy, expansion of space, and gravitational time dilation—still appear to be correct. But Humphreys was never fully satisfied with its details because a) the solution did not provide enough time dilation for nearby stars and galaxies, and b) it was based on a metric—a solution of Einstein’s gravity equations—that was too complex to analyze fully. A referee for a subsequent relativity paper Humphreys wrote insisted that he derive a new metric to support the paper’s conclusions. After several months of mathematical work, Humphreys found the solution and the Journal of Creation published his results. The article’s appendix contains the new metric and derivation. In a series of Acts & Facts articles, we will describe qualitatively the implications of this new metric and how it explains the cosmology of the creation events.

Russ Humphreys New time dilation helps creation cosmology December 2008

The starlight problem - The starlight distance - a problem for a young universe interpretation ?  6792waters-heavens
The waters above the heavens, mentioned in Psalm 148:4.

In this paper, it has revealed a new type of time dilation, achronicity. The fundamental cause of achronicity appears to be that gravitational potential becomes so negative that the total energy density of the fabric of space becomes negative. That stops the propagation of light, all physical processes, and all physical clocks, thus stopping time itself. I have examined the effect only for essentially motionless bodies (having velocities very much less than that of light). In a later paper, I hope to explore some of the interesting and possibly useful effects of achronicity for non-negligible particle velocities. The speculative scenario in the previous two sections shows how useful achronicity could be in creation cosmology. Other scenarios are easily possible, and I hope that other creationists making alternative cosmologies will find timelessness a good tool.
https://creation.com/new-time-dilation-helps-creation-cosmology

My comment: I look at this proposal, that around the universe is a mantle of water, based on one versicle in Psalms in the Bible, with incredulity and skepticism.

Time Stands Still
The new metric is not complicated, compared to many modern ones. Because it is simple and yet rigorous, it shows a feature of gravitational time dilation that nobody had noticed before. The feature was implicit in many previous metrics, but it had been obscured by the effects of motion. Humphreys calls this feature of time dilation achronicity, or “timelessness.” It causes clocks and all physical processes—hence, time itself—to be completely stopped in a region that could be very large. This is in contrast to the time dilation around a black hole, in which time is completely stopped only at a certain exact distance from its center, at the “event horizon.”3 In his 2008 article, Humphreys showed how this new metric led straightforwardly to achronicity. In the last five pages of the paper, he applied the time dilation achronicity to develop a new creationist cosmology.
https://www.icr.org/article/new-creationist-cosmology-no-time-at

D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. A New Creationist Cosmology: In No Time at All Part 2 JANUARY 01, 2011
https://www.icr.org/article/5830

D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. A New Creationist Cosmology: In No Time at All Part 3 JANUARY 31, 2011
https://www.icr.org/article/5870/

LINDSAY HAROLD DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN APPARENT AGE AND MATURE CREATION 2017
There is an important difference between a mature creation and apparent age. God is not deceptive and would not create things with a false appearance of age. But he did create the universe functionally mature.
https://thecreationclub.com/distinguishing-between-apparent-age-and-mature-creation/?fbclid=IwAR3f1AsjIqJqAovYpiCrK0HHugDaNiT_VStWri90zICrn-x0ZngyHcTsVcg

GENESIS APOLOGETICS MUST THE UNIVERSE BE OLD FOR US TO SEE STARLIGHT? 2019
Distant starlight is very explainable, both biblically and technically. Let’s start with the short answer based on the Bible. First, humans were not present when God created light, space, speed, time, gravity, and the stars. These were all formed during the first five days of creation, miraculously (Hebrews 11:3). This means that the natural confines, measurements, and relationships between these things were not the same as they are today. The way God spoke to Job about this still applies today. He said, “Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?” God—almost sarcastically—asks Job if He knows how the rules and laws of the heavens work. Today, we still cannot answer this question.
https://genesisapologetics.com/faqs/starlight-doesnt-distant-starlight-prove-creation-is-billions-of-years-old/

Further literature:
OPERA Collaboration  Measurement of the neutrino velocity with the OPERA detector in the CNGS beam 12 Jul 2012
https://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897

STEVE HENDRICKSON STARLIGHT AND TIME: THE ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE PROVIDES AN ANSWER, PART 1 2021
https://thecreationclub.com/starlight-and-time-the-engineering-perspective-provides-an-answer-part-1/

STEVE HENDRICKSON STARLIGHT AND TIME: THE ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE PROVIDES AN ANSWER, PART 2 2021
https://thecreationclub.com/starlight-and-time-the-engineering-perspective-provides-an-answer-part-2/

Dr. Jason Lisle  Distant Starlight—The Anisotropic Synchrony Convention September 22, 2010
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/starlight/distant-starlight-thesis/

Dr. Jason Lisle Distant Starlight in a Young Universe: Concepts of Simultaneity  Oct 30, 2020
Einstein states, “That light requires the same time to traverse the path A to M as for the path B to M is in reality neither a supposition nor a hypothesis about the physical nature of light, but a stipulation which I can make of my own freewill in order to arrive at a definition of simultaneity.”[13] (emphasis in the original)

So, the one-way speed of light is not a property of nature at all.  Rather, it is a humanly-stipulated convention that enables us to define what constitutes synchronized clocks for a given observer.  This principle is called the conventionality thesis (or the conventionality of distant simultaneity), and it follows logically and inevitably from the relativity of simultaneity.  The conventionality thesis means that we are free to choose the one-way speed of light in a particular direction for a particular observer, and this constitutes a definition of simultaneous for that observer.  (Note that the speed in the opposite direction will then be determined by the requirement that the round-trip time-averaged speed of light in vacuum must always be c.)[14]  As a definition, it cannot be refuted by any experiment or observation.

Under that convention, there is no distant starlight problem because the creation of the stars is concurrent with the arrival of their first light on earth.  No time is required to traverse the distance, and we see the universe as it is now.  The perception of starlight problem arose from the assumption that the visual synchrony convention is wrong, and the Einstein synchrony convention is correct.  But such an assumption is not compatible with modern physics.
https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/apologetics/distant-starlight-in-a-young-universe/?fbclid=IwAR3f1AsjIqJqAovYpiCrK0HHugDaNiT_VStWri90zICrn-x0ZngyHcTsVcg

Tichomir G. Tenev A Solution for the Distant Starlight Problem Using Creation Time Coordinates 2018
In this paper, we have described a solution for the Distant Starlight Problem that is based on the synchrony convention implied by God’s numbering of the days in Genesis 1 plus a proposed set of initial conditions that constrain how we infer God arranged stellar creation events in spacetime. In its essence, our solution, based on the notion of Creation Time Coordinates (CTC) is similar to Lisle’s Anisotropic Synchrony Convention (ASC) model (Newton, 2001; Lisle, 2010). Our CTC-based solution’s explicit initial conditions adds clarity and points to the same falsifiable predictions, namely that the cosmos should appear young and that the first light from all stars, near and far, appeared on Earth on Day Four. We showed that these predictions are supported both by Scripture and by observations.
https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=icc_proceedings

Jason Lisle Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old Jan 16, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83brK_yohRA

Veritasium Why No One Has Measured The Speed Of Light Oct 31, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTn6Ewhb27k

DIOGENES Happy Jason Lisle Day! Celebrating Creationists' Inability to Solve the "Starlight Problem" (and Willigness to Lie About It) SEPTEMBER 11, 2014
http://lamp-of-diogenes.blogspot.com/2014/09/happy-jason-lisle-day-celebrating.html

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Distant Starlight: Does it Disprove Biblical Creation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JEFy-ZtEzg


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