Show: Why does God not simply show himself to us ?

Why does God not simply show himself to us ?

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1422-show-why-does-god-not-simply-show-himself-to-us

If God would prove His existence to humanity by being constantly present and intervening, preventing evil and bad things to happen constantly, like preventing a rape, unbelievers would complain that they are hindered to live their lives in freedom, absent from God.

Without God's hiddenness we would not have any significant freedom. Even those that hate God would be unable to fully live according to their wishes; much like a criminal would find it intolerable living in police station.

Atheists wrongly assume that God wants everyone to worship Him because He's an apparent egomaniac; the hard truth is that humans don't have a choice to not worship, but only a choice on what we will worship. God being visible to the senses would make even that choice impossible.

Besides, God is the foundation of all truth, beauty, life and love; it would be like standing in front of all of the beauty of nature's grandeur and all the wonder of the cosmos at once - there is none who could not fall and worship at that point!

Philosopher Michael Murray of Franklin & Marshall College makes the case that if God stays hidden to a degree, He gives people the free will to either respond to His tugging at their hearts or remain autonomous from Him. This is what happens in the narrative of the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve are tempted by the serpent, God’s immediate proximity to them is not evident. Perhaps the character is what you do when you think nobody is looking.

What if, in the words of Blaise Pascal, God has only revealed Himself enough to give us the choice of whether or not to believe? Pascal says, “There is enough light for those who desire only to see, and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition.”

if you prefer being an atheist, God values your free will more than His desires for you. If you are really after truth, then have an open mind and follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if you don’t like the conclusion.


If we can make God an object of our observations we have demoted God to the level of a thing in creation. 1

If you were an intelligent software living in a virtual world of bytes, how would you show other intelligent software that humans exist? You can’t come out of the computer. Don’t you understand this? You have to rely on humans coming to you. And even if they do, they cannot enter physically in the virtual world.

Humans would need to resort to software in order to communicate with you. In other words, you will never ever be capable of interacting with humans directly. You would see another software that looks probably like you controlled by humans and you would need to trust that software is a human. Understand? Read it again, please.

God has the same limitation; he cannot get into creation as he exactly is. It is not possible for him. He needs to rely on using physical matter to interact with us. The same happens with angels and demons.

Every time a human has seen an angel, the angel has the appearance of humans but with wings or without wings or made of fire, etc. They can manipulate the physical realm the same way as we can manipulate the software world.

With all this being said, I think I know what I’m talking about. The full “Godless” atheist theory is just what it states it is, A THEORY. It is based on the empirical chain of beliefs at multiple steps. It is not science. It is pure philosophy.

God does not make His existence evident because it would lead to chaos, rebellion and finally destruction for the human species.  We who have been wooed into a covenantial loving relationship with God ,find comfort in is omnipresence and His omniscience. But for those who resist the love of God, those attributes would be nothing less than hell on earth.  They would hate God because they know they'd still be responsible to their Creator, even if God said they wouldn't have to be, which He wouldn't because that would violate His sovereignty.  So it wouldn't take long for the imagination of men to start claiming God as a devil, or a government program with advanced technology to keep us under control, or even aliens, anything to escape obedience and loyalty to God. Then of course, open rebellion would follow.  God's wisdom is love, but love must be given freely from both sides.  But a free humanity has the ability, and the inclination to love their sin. Hence, for God to reveal Himself to a unregenerated world, is to destroy that world. Most who would bend the knee would be doing so out of purely self-interested fear.

http://www.christianapologeticsalliance.com/2013/06/18/why-wont-god-show-himself-to-the-world/

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1422-show-why-does-god-not-simply-show-himself-to-us







1. http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2014/03/are-laws-of-physicsnature-descriptive.html

There are ~5 types of faith/belief in the Bible. Faith in God being real is consistently based on vast evidence and proof (see Luke 1:1-4 and Acts 1:1-4 and MANY other verses)

As Romans 2:12-16 and Acts 17:30 and other Bible verses say, God never condemns anyone for ignorance, or what they do not know. People are vindicated or condemned for refusing to follow truth that they HAVE been made aware of, but chose to reject. The reasons that Israel and other nations were condemned were different, since Israel had been given a lot more laws of freedom than other nations had.

If we didn't have free choice, we couldn't choose to sin. The reason God allows sin is precisely because He is NOT a dictator, and is allowing a demonstration of worldviews that want to compete with God's perfect government...so all in the universe and all people can see for themselves which way is better to live, God's or Satan's. This is brilliantly illustrated in the first ~20 minutes of this documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQmLVU_nvo8

There are averages for intelligence, but there are of course some very smart atheists/theists and some dumb ones. God doesn't work on averages in salvation, but with each individuals and the knowledge he/she has been exposed to.


http://godevidence.com/2010/07/why-doesnt-god-show-himself/

if God could force us to love him, it would not really be love. Love is not love unless it is freely chosen:

“Power can do everything but the most important thing: it cannot control love…In a concentration camp, the guards posses almost unlimited power. By applying force, they can make you renounce your God, curse your family, work without pay…kill and then bury your closest friend or even your own mother. All this is within their power. Only one thing is not: they cannot force you to love them. This fact may help explain why God sometimes seems shy to use his power. He created us to love him, but his most impressive displays of miracle—the kind we may secretly long for—do nothing to foster that love. As Douglas John Hall has put it, ‘God’s problem is not that God is not able to do certain things. God’s problem is that God loves. Love complicates the life of God as it complicates every life.’”

In short, it all boils down to free will. If God made us unable to deny his existence, we would be unable to choose to love Him. Frequent, “impressive displays of miracle” would go further than merely doing “nothing to foster love.” Rather, they would render us much less able to choose to love God. It would take a fool indeed to reject a God whose existence is completely undeniable.

"either God does not exist or he has a good reason for keeping a low profile"
Then I would suggest the reason: in this state, we humans are "left to our own devices". What happens is the real person comes out. If God was to rock up and show himself and have all his angels patrol the earth, everyone would behave.
But "When the cat's away, the mice shall play". Its a test to see if we are fit to be "citizens of the universe". I mean, think about it... Would you let Hitler into heaven? The human being has long been called "The world's most dangerous animal".
The atheist will not buy it but, one has to agree, hypothetically, it is a good enough reason.
Then I would go to the issue of intelligent design. Once properly explored and understood, ID becomes irrefutable proof of a designer. It absolutely cannot be denied. And that designer has to be highly intelligent, very experienced in all areas of science, and have consciousness, emotions, and other traits of humanity. From then, I would say "OK, you can't see God but you can see the result of the work of something... (or somethings) its very obvious".
From there, the Atheist would have to give up the above ideas because the evidence of "something" becomes overwhelming and opens the door for mustard seed of faith.

Claim: A real god could speak for itself. Clearly & unmistakably as itself, rendering no need for its flawed creations to write a book, interpret its words, spread its messages, & die for it. There are few things more absurd than the notion a real god needs humans to speak for it.

Response: It is certainly true that if there is a God who desires to communicate with humanity, one would expect that God to speak clearly and unmistakably in a way that leaves no room for doubt or confusion. However, the objection overlooks some important considerations.

First, it assumes that human beings are entirely separate from God and that any communication between the two must be one-sided. But many religious traditions hold that humans are created in the image of God and that God speaks through human beings as well as directly. In this view, the Bible, for example, is seen as a record of God's communication with humanity through the prophets and other figures in history.

Second, the objection assumes that communication from God must be entirely self-contained and independent of human interpretation. However, even if God were to speak directly to humans, it would still be necessary for them to interpret and apply those messages to their lives. This is because human language is inherently ambiguous and subject to interpretation. Additionally, people's own biases and assumptions can influence how they interpret and apply divine messages.

Finally, the objection overlooks the possibility that God may have reasons for communicating indirectly through human beings and allowing for interpretation and ambiguity. One possible reason is to encourage people to engage with one another and work together to understand and apply divine messages. Another reason is to foster humility and a recognition of the limitations of human knowledge and understanding.

In short, while the objection raises a valid concern about the need for clear communication from God, it overlooks the complexities of human-divine communication and the potential benefits of indirect and interpreted messages.

Furthermore, the Gospel is very clear in its central message. In 1 Corinthians 1:18 the apostle Paul writes: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Paul is saying that for those who reject or are hostile to the message of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, it seems like foolishness or nonsense. There are many reasons why someone might view the message of the cross as foolishness. For some, it may be difficult to believe in a God who would allow his own son to suffer and die in such a brutal way. Others may see the idea of salvation through faith in a crucified messiah as simplistic or naive. Still others may reject the message of the cross because they have been taught to value reason and empirical evidence over faith and religious belief. However, for me as a Christian, the cross represents the ultimate expression of God's love for humanity. Jesus' death on the cross was necessary to atone for the sins of all people and to offer them the gift of eternal life. I believe that the power of the cross comes not from human wisdom or intellect, but from the divine grace and mercy of God. For me as a believer, the cross is the source of hope, joy, and salvation.

Why God does not provide conclusive proof of His existence

Faith and Free Will: In Christianity, faith is not just a belief in the existence of God; it's a trust in His character, His promises, and His love. We believe that God values our freedom to choose. If He were to impose Himself on us incontrovertibly, it would negate our free will. We wouldn't be choosing to love and trust God; we would be compelled by undeniable proof. This compulsory recognition would undermine the genuine, loving relationship that God desires to have with each of us.

The Nature of God's Revelation: In Christianity, God is seen as a being who reveals Himself in ways that are consistent with His character. He reveals Himself through the beauty and order of creation, the moral law within our hearts, the teachings and life of Jesus Christ, and the experiences of believers. Yet, this revelation is subtle enough that it requires an open heart and mind to recognize it. It's not an overwhelming proof that forces belief but an invitation to seek and find.

Jesus Christ's Life and Ministry: The life of Jesus Christ is central to Christian belief. Through His teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection, we believe that God has already provided a profound revelation of Himself. Yet, even in Jesus' time, not everyone who saw His miracles believed in Him. This underscores the idea that faith involves more than just seeing; it involves the heart and mind's transformation.

The Role of the Holy Spirit: Christians believe in the Holy Spirit, who works in the hearts and minds of individuals, guiding and enlightening them. This is a more personal and internal process, different from external, empirical proofs. It's about a personal relationship with God, fostered and grown within the context of faith.

The Purpose of Life's Challenges: In Christianity, the challenges and trials of life are often seen as opportunities for growth in faith. If God were to make Himself undeniably known, it could diminish the significance of faith and the personal growth that comes from wrestling with doubts and questions.

Faith as a Journey: For many Christians, faith is not static but a journey. It involves questioning, doubting, and seeking. This journey is essential to the development of a deep and mature faith. It's a journey we are invited to embark on, not one we are forced into.

The Fulfillment of Divine Promise: a Renewed World in Revelation

In a hypothetical scenario where God's existence is irrefutably proven and He issues commands to humanity while refraining from intervening in human decisions, the interplay between divine presence and human autonomy becomes exceedingly complex. This scenario poses significant philosophical, ethical, and psychological challenges, particularly for atheists who often demand empirical proof of God’s existence but may not have fully contemplated the ramifications of such proof on their lives and freedom. In this world, people are acutely aware of a divine creator and are presented with a set of divine commands reminiscent of those in the Old Testament. However, God does not directly intervene in human choices, leaving individuals with the autonomy to follow these commands or not. This creates a paradox where divine directives exist alongside human free will, leading to heightened moral responsibility and accountability. Individuals must navigate the complexities of adhering to these divine commands out of duty, fear of divine retribution, or personal conviction, while balancing them against their own beliefs and desires. The knowledge of God's existence, combined with His commands, could be perceived as a form of moral dictatorship. For atheists and others who value personal autonomy, this scenario represents a significant challenge to their philosophical and ethical foundations.

The presence of a divine moral code without direct enforcement creates a unique tension, leaving individuals in a state of constant self-censorship or psychological stress. They might feel their actions are constantly monitored and judged against a divine standard, leading to anxiety, guilt, or existential dread. This situation could be especially difficult for those who previously believed in no higher moral authority than themselves. The transition from a self-determined moral framework to one that is divinely mandated could lead to feelings of resentment, anger, and rebellion. The inability to escape the reality of a divine moral code, combined with the absence of a supportive divine presence, could exacerbate feelings of isolation and despair. The societal and cultural impact of this dynamic would be profound. Societies might become deeply polarized between those who accept and follow the divine commands and those who resist them. This polarization could manifest in social conflicts, cultural divides, and political struggles, as the presence of a divine moral code influences every aspect of life. The societal fabric could be strained as individuals and communities grapple with finding common ground between divine command and personal autonomy. The undeniable proof of God's existence and the issuance of divine commands in a world where He does not intervene directly could lead to what some might perceive as a psychological "hell on earth" for those who value personal autonomy. This scenario challenges the foundational beliefs of atheism and brings to light the potential for significant societal and cultural conflicts. The tension between divine authority and human freedom would present unique challenges, leading to a diverse range of personal, social, and cultural responses.

In a scenario where God intervenes in every instance of evil, such as preventing the atrocity of a child being raped, the implications for human freedom and the nature of our world would be profound and far-reaching. While the initial notion of a deity stepping in to prevent all acts of evil might seem benevolent and protective, the full scope of such intervention raises complex questions about free will, moral responsibility, and the very fabric of human experience.

What about a world where God would avoid evil in every instance?

If God were to intervene in every instance of evil, effectively blocking every act that goes against divine morality, it would lead to a world where human free will is significantly curtailed. The ability to make genuine choices, including those that lead to negative or harmful outcomes, is a fundamental aspect of human freedom. In a world where every potential evil act is preemptively stopped by divine intervention, the concept of free will would be severely undermined. Humans would no longer have the moral agency to choose between good and evil. Every decision would be preemptively corrected to align with a divine standard, removing the essential human experience of making moral choices and learning from them. The nature of human life and experience would fundamentally change. The development of virtues such as courage, empathy, and resilience often arises from facing and overcoming challenges, including the presence of evil. In a world devoid of these challenges due to divine intervention, the opportunity for such growth would be limited. Humanity could become passive and dependent, expecting divine intervention in every difficult situation.

This could lead to a lack of initiative and responsibility, as people might no longer feel the need to act against injustices or strive for personal and communal betterment, knowing that divine intervention would resolve all issues. The ability to discern right from wrong and develop a personal moral compass would be diminished. In a world where evil actions are impossible due to divine intervention, the concept of morality could become abstract and irrelevant to daily life. If divine intervention were to occur every time a potential evil act is about to happen, it could lead to unpredictable and chaotic scenarios. People might attempt actions, never knowing whether they will be allowed to complete them, leading to confusion and uncertainty about the nature of causality and consequence. Such a world would challenge many philosophical and theological concepts, including the purpose of life, the nature of God, and the role of suffering and evil in the human experience. It would raise questions about the character and intentions of a God who controls every aspect of human behavior. Without the presence of challenges and the need to overcome evil, societies might stagnate. The driving forces behind many social reforms and moral progressions are often the recognition and opposition to evil and injustice.

The aspect of love, particularly in its voluntary and authentic form, is a key element that would be significantly impacted. Love, in its truest sense, is deeply intertwined with the concepts of free will and choice. If divine intervention were to preemptively block every act that goes against divine morality, the authenticity and voluntary nature of love would be profoundly affected. Love is most genuine and meaningful when it is a choice. In a world where all actions, including those that express love, are orchestrated or controlled by divine intervention, the spontaneity and sincerity of love are called into question. Love that is not freely chosen but rather is the only available option in a predetermined moral landscape loses its depth and authenticity. The ability to choose to love, with all the vulnerabilities and risks it entails, is a fundamental aspect of the human experience. If people are unable to make genuine choices due to the absence of any potential for wrongdoing, then the decision to love is no longer a courageous and meaningful act but a default state without alternative.

The development of deep, enduring love often comes through overcoming challenges and choosing to love in spite of difficulties. If the potential for pain, betrayal, or rejection is removed through divine intervention, then the opportunity to demonstrate and grow in love despite these challenges is lost. Love becomes a shallow, untested sentiment rather than a profound commitment. One of the highest forms of love involves sacrifice and altruism. In a world devoid of evil or suffering, the opportunity for sacrificial love – choosing the good of another over one's own comfort or safety – would be greatly diminished. The noblest acts of love are often those that involve personal cost, which would be largely irrelevant in a world where all harm is prevented.  In a world where moral choices are dictated and controlled, love becomes another mandated behavior rather than a moral choice. The moral value of choosing to love, particularly in difficult circumstances, is an essential aspect of human virtue. This dimension of love as a moral choice would be effectively nullified in a world governed by preemptive divine intervention. The dynamics of interpersonal relationships, which are significantly shaped by the complexities of love, would be fundamentally altered. Relationships would lack the depth that comes from navigating the imperfections and challenges of human interaction. The element of choosing to love someone for who they are, with all their flaws and potential for wrongdoing, is a testament to the resilience and depth of human love.

Removing all evil, God could not show his holiness, love, justice, and moral character to us

The concept of divine intervention preventing every instance of evil would also have profound implications for the way God demonstrates His love for humanity, particularly through the incarnation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Christian narrative of God's love, justice, and moral perfection is deeply intertwined with the existence of human free will and the capacity for humans to choose between good and evil. The incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ and His subsequent death for the sins of humanity is the ultimate demonstration of God's love. This act of sacrifice occurred in a world where sin and evil exist, and where humans have the freedom to choose wrong. In a world where God prevents all evil, the necessity and significance of such a sacrifice would be fundamentally altered. The incarnation and crucifixion are potent precisely because they occur within a context of human fallibility and moral struggle. Part of the richness of the Christian understanding of God involves His moral attributes like love, justice, mercy, and grace. These attributes are most profoundly understood and appreciated in a context where there is wrongdoing, suffering, and the need for redemption. In a world without the possibility of evil, the demonstration of these attributes would be limited, as there would be no context for acts of forgiveness, no need for mercy, and no meaningful display of justice.

Christian theology emphasizes the relational nature of God’s love. The relationship between God and humanity, as portrayed in the Bible, involves a dynamic interplay of love, choice, rebellion, and redemption. Removing the element of free will would remove the depth and authenticity of this relationship. The ability of humans to freely respond to God’s love, to choose to follow Him or not, is central to the narrative of the relationship between God and humanity. In many Christian traditions, human life is seen as a journey of moral growth and spiritual development, leading towards a closer relationship with God. This journey presupposes the existence of moral choices. Without the possibility of choosing wrongly, the journey loses its meaning. The challenges, struggles, and triumphs of moral decision-making are what make spiritual growth and character development possible. The Christian understanding of God’s plan for humanity involves not just the avoidance of evil but the active pursuit of good, the cultivation of virtues, and the creation of a just and loving community. This plan is meaningful precisely because it involves choices and actions in a world where alternative paths exist. In a world without the possibility of evil, this plan loses its significance, as the choices that make it meaningful are no longer present. The story of redemption, a central theme in Christianity, hinges on the existence of sin and the need for salvation. The narrative of humans turning away from God, and God’s actions to bring them back, demonstrates the depth of God’s love and the extent of His commitment to humanity. In a world without sin, the story of redemption would not exist, and the powerful demonstration of God’s love through redemption would be absent. The prevention of all evil through divine intervention would not only impact human free will and moral agency but also impede God’s ability to demonstrate His love, justice, and moral perfection as portrayed in Christian theology. The incarnation, sacrifice, and redemptive plan of God are all predicated on a world where moral choices exist and where humans are free to choose between good and evil. Removing this element would fundamentally alter the nature of God’s relationship with humanity and the very essence of the Christian narrative of love and redemption.

The best possible world

The world, as it exists with free will and the potential for evil, is the optimal scenario for achieving the greatest good, such as love, moral growth, and a meaningful relationship between God and humanity. In this viewpoint, free will is considered one of the greatest goods. The ability to choose freely is essential for genuine love, moral decisions, and personal growth. A world where free will is preserved—even at the risk of evil and suffering—is superior to a world where freedom is curtailed but evil is absent. Free will enables authentic relationships, both among humans and between humans and God, allowing for love, trust, and commitment to be meaningful and real. The presence of evil and suffering provides opportunities for significant moral and spiritual development. Overcoming challenges, facing moral dilemmas, and making altruistic choices contribute to character-building and spiritual growth. These experiences often lead to greater empathy, resilience, and a deeper understanding of good and evil. In Christian theology, the existence of evil sets the stage for the profound narrative of God's love, mercy, and justice, exemplified in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The redemption story is meaningful because it addresses real human failings and suffering. God's actions in this narrative demonstrate His commitment to humanity, His willingness to enter into the human experience, and His power to bring good out of evil. The challenges posed by evil and suffering can lead to the formation of communities centered around mutual support, justice, and love. The collective response to adversity can foster a sense of solidarity, compassion, and a shared commitment to creating a better world. This perspective often invokes the concept of the "greater good," suggesting that the existence of evil can lead to greater goods that would not be possible in its absence. This includes the knowledge of good and evil, the appreciation of goodness against the backdrop of suffering, and the free choice to do good in the face of evil options. The creation of a world with free will, moral choices, and natural laws may inherently come with the possibility of evil and suffering. From this perspective, such a world is still the best possible one, as it allows for a richness and depth of experience, relationships, and knowledge that a world without such complexity would lack.

A New Earth, a New Heaven

The concept presented in the Book of Revelation about a new world without suffering and evil encapsulates a profound hope in Christian eschatology. This vision, often referred to as the New Heaven and New Earth, is the culmination of God's redemptive plan for humanity and the universe. It represents the ultimate reconciliation of divine justice, love, and human freedom, leading to an eternal existence characterized by glory, purity, happiness, and joy. In this new world, the fullness of God's kingdom is realized. It is a world where God's will is perfectly aligned with human action. The inhabitants of this new creation are those who have freely chosen God's kingship and love, both for God and for their neighbors. This choice, made in the context of the current world with all its challenges and temptations, leads to a reality where the propensity to choose evil has been overcome. The new world will be a transformation where the inclination to evil is removed. This does not imply a loss of free will but rather a perfected state of will where the desire to do evil is nonexistent. Inhabitants of this new creation, having been fully redeemed and transformed, naturally choose good as an expression of their love for God and others, mirroring the moral perfection seen in the divine. The prophetic vision in Revelation describes a world free from pain, suffering, and evil. This marks the end of the historical struggle between good and evil, a resolution to the problem of pain, and the fulfillment of a long-awaited promise of restoration and peace. Life in the new creation is characterized by unending joy, peace, and fulfillment. The deep longings and aspirations of humanity find their complete satisfaction in this renewed existence. It's a state of being where the joyous aspects of human experience are amplified, untainted by the sorrows and limitations of current earthly life. Central to this new existence is the unmediated presence of God among His people. This presence brings a profound sense of belonging, purpose, and love. It fulfills the deepest human desire for connection and communion with the divine, establishing an eternal relationship that is based on perfect understanding, acceptance, and love. This new world is also marked by perfect harmony and community among its inhabitants. The barriers that currently divide humanity—be it cultural, racial, or any other form of division—are overcome. The community of believers shares a common purpose and joy, living in a state of mutual love and respect.
The inhabitants of the new creation continue to exercise free will, but in a context where their choices are always aligned with goodness and love. This world would likely be a place of endless creativity and exploration, where human potential can be fully realized in the absence of sin and its consequences. The vision of a new world as presented in Revelation is one of hope and ultimate redemption. It is a promise of a future where the struggles and pains of the current world are no more, and where humanity can exist in perfect harmony with God and each other. This eternal state is not just an absence of evil and suffering, but a positive presence of all that is good, pure, and joyful, made possible through the redemptive work of God and the free choice of humanity to embrace His love and lordship.

Certainly, among the verses in the Book of Revelation that describe the future new world, the three most relevant ones, capturing the essence of this promised transformation, are:

Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." This verse sets the stage for the entire vision, introducing the concept of a completely renewed creation.
Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." This verse speaks directly to the end of suffering, grief, and pain, highlighting the profound peace and complete healing that will characterize the new world.
21:3"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.'" This verse emphasizes the restored and perfect relationship between God and humanity, where God's presence is intimately and eternally with His people.

How you can get Saved!
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2501-how-you-can-get-saved