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Intelligent Design, the best explanation of Origins

This is my personal virtual library, where i collect information, which leads in my view to Intelligent Design as the best explanation of the origin of the physical Universe, life, and biodiversity


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Intelligent Design, the best explanation of Origins » Young and old earth Creationism » Objections to Noah's flood

Objections to Noah's flood

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1Objections to Noah's flood Empty Objections to Noah's flood on Sat May 02, 2020 4:54 am

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Noah’s Ark
https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/



Alright, the Global Flood Requirement Master List must be written for all time.

First thing to keep in mind: these things must all occur simultaneously in every record

Second thing to keep in mind: everything must have occurred AFTER the advent of agriculture 12,000 years ago, and AFTER the domestication of camels 6,000 years ago, since these things are in the Bible as if they always existed with humans

Paelontological record:

- sudden mass extinction of land species, including plants

- sudden mass extinction of freshwater species, including plants (near-total extinction of vertebrate freshwater species)

- sudden mass extinction of marine non-mammals living in the photic zone

- sudden mass extinction of marine mammals

- total extinction of all coral species in the photic zone (they are stationary, rely on algae to survive, algae in turn rely on sunlight, and sunlight would not penetrate that far even through clean and clear water). No recovery of these species, only their dead structures left behind all over the world


Biological record:

- population bottleneck of H. sapiens sapiens around the Middle East (humanity's evolutionary cradle should be traced back to the Middle East instead of Africa)

- The Mitochondrial Eves (all of them) should be Middle Eastern instead of Central African

- The Y-chromosomal Adam (Haplogroup A) should be Middle Eastern instead of Central African

- bottlenecks of land species including plants, traceable back to the same region

- bottlenecks of freshwater species including plants BUT - how can vertebrate freshwater species even begin to recover from living in absolutely foul and churning water, muddy and full of innumerable decaying corpses of everything that died

- presence of lactase persistence mutations in virtually all humans living today, traceable back to a group in the Middle East (lactase persistence was selected multiple times in different groups of humans after the advent of agriculture, so there are actually different mutations that grant lactase persistence) - In other words, almost everyone should be able to consume dairy today (and the majority are lactose intolerant)

- virtually all living humans should either have traces of Neandertal DNA or none at all (instead of only the ones descended from the groups that migrated from Africa to Europe and met H. neanderthalensis). All or nothing; people of African descent carrying 0% Neandertal DNA throws a fat wrench in "humanity was rebooted from ancient Hebrews" and instead remains consistent with the general evolutionary history of H. sapiens.

Archaeological record:

- sudden mass extinction of human civilizations

- bottleneck of human civilization in the Middle East

Physical anthropological record:

- sudden mass extinction of human ethnicity (genetics would reveal this)

- population bottleneck (again, genetics would tell)

Cultural anthropological record:

- sudden mass extinction of human cultures, including religions

- bottleneck blah blah blah

Linguistic anthropological record and linguistics (yeah two different fields):

- sudden mass extinction of human languages

- etymologies of all living languages traceable back to ancient Middle Eastern languages

Geology and paleobotany:

- evidence of a global layer of brackish water

- sudden death of all varieties of forests (even with a magical recovery of all tree species, there would still be evidence of a mass death of trees all over the world)

Climatology:

- all that water and disruption of life would have triggered a global climate shift

- something weird happening with the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, since some 70% of our oxygen is produced by marine plants

- ice cores from all over the globe showing weird shit in the same layer

The Bible:

- there would be no clean freshwater source anywhere around the Ark, not even if they spent a month digging a well. The pressure from the flood waters would have pushed all kinds of disgusting shit into groundwater sources

Again, all of the above most be occurring simultaneously in every record.

But wait! BONUS ROUND:

- superevolution to give us the biodiversity we have today

AND NONE OF THIS  HAPPENED. It's not a mere absence of evidence of a global flood, this is all evidence against a global flood occurring. The entire world went on uninterrupted as if it never happened.

If you think the flood happened as described in the Bible, get over it and move on with your life.


What did the animals eat? Every time a carnivore feeds, it would have to eat 1 out of the 2 animals of a different "kind" thus making that "kind" go extinct since it would no longer have the means to procreate.
Herbivores would just die of starvation since all plant life (their food source) would be dead from flood waters and would take years to come back. That's just the start of the problems with the myth.
If you take the story literally, you haven't thought it through. There are so many reasons why the story, if taken literally is impossible..


The mountain currently called "Ararat" is a modern label. In Biblical times, this name referred to a region of mountains, not a single mountain. Thus, anyone who claims to have found something on THIS mountain is clearly making it up from a position of ignorance of the very story they are trying to prove true.
1. Not enough water. Claims of where the water came from don’t stand up to physics or evidence.
2. Have the necessary water and you have to deliver it in cataclysmic result: molten surface
3. Where did the water go?
4. Unreinforced wooden boat cannot stand its own weight.
5. Boat cannot navigate open deep water, nor does it have propulsion. (required for sailing to steer into waves).
6. Lack of oxygen at that altitude.
7. Lack of potable drinking water.
8. Animal dietary needs.
9. Lack of human fossils.
10. Incest. Just, so much incest required after the fact.

Condense all the water on Earth and in the atmosphere and you get nothing close to what’s needed for that story. All the water on and in the Earth is about 332,500,000 cubic miles. To flood the Earth according to the story, you need an additional 1,085,166,768 miles³ of rain to fall.
We arrive at this figure by showing the volume of the pre-flood to be 259,923,241,564 miles³. V = 4/3πr³ (Earth’s radius is 3959 miles)
Then we flood it to the levels of the story, which brings the Earth’s radius at flood to 3964.501 miles.
(The Earth’s radius plus Evererest, plus 22 feet or 15 cubits= 3964.50 miles.)
Which increases the volume to 261,008,408,332 miles³
Subtract the Earth’s volume from the volume of the Flooded Earth and we arrive at 1,085,166,768 miles³.
The water suspended in our atmosphere is sufficient to add 1 INCH of water to the surface of the Earth if we somehow managed to completely wring out the atmosphere of all vapor.
Since there are 1,101,117,147,428.57 gallons in a cubic mile, this means that your claim requires 1,194,895,700,000,000,000,000 times the amount of water in our atmosphere than we currently have after this flood ended.
Also, the Ice Age didn’t require more water then than we have now. The Ice Age simply trapped more water as ice, meaning ocean levels were lower.

***1. What physics and evidence says there’s enough water I’m waiting it is sad if you have a degree like you claim you have to use such obvious fluffy wording and nonsense. AND 3. Back into the atmosphere after it evaporated and that gave the necessary water for the ice age. ***

My response:
Condense all the water on Earth and in the atmosphere and you get nothing close to what’s needed for that story. All the water on and in the Earth is about 332,500,000 cubic miles. To flood the Earth according to the story, you need an additional 1,085,166,768 miles³ of rain to fall.

We arrive at this figure by showing the volume of the pre-flood to be 259,923,241,564 miles³. V = 4/3πr³ (Earth’s radius is 3959 miles)

Then we flood it to the levels of the story, which brings the Earth’s radius at flood to 3964.501 miles.

(The Earth’s radius plus Evererest, plus 22 feet or 15 cubits= 3964.50 miles.)

Which increases the volume to 261,008,408,332 miles³

Subtract the Earth’s volume from the volume of the Flooded Earth and we arrive at 1,085,166,768 miles³.

The water suspended in our atmosphere is sufficient to add 1 INCH of water to the surface of the Earth if we somehow managed to completely wring out the atmosphere of all vapor.

Since there are 1,101,117,147,428.57 gallons in a cubic mile, this means that your claim requires 1,194,895,700,000,000,000,000 times the amount of water in our atmosphere than we currently have after this flood ended.

Also, the Ice Age didn’t require more water then than we have now. The Ice Age simply trapped more water as ice, meaning ocean levels were lower.

https://www.usgs.gov/.../distribution-water-and-above-earth
https://whyfiles.org/.../how-much-water-is-in.../index.html


You said:

**2. Molten surface? What’s going to cause all that to break out all at once or the right amount answer the genesis flood.***

My response:

Using the above figures for how much rain would be required to fall (1,085,166,768 miles³) and the time the rain fell from the story (40 days and 40 nights, simplified here to 40 24-hour days), we get a daily rainfall total of 27,129,169 miles³, or 29,872,393,000,000,000,000 gallons across the whole planet.

The highest rainfall amount ever officially recorded in the US was 2.03 inches in 5 minutes. This equates to 584.64 inches or 48.72 feet, in 24 hours, if it was sustained.

Everest + 15 feet is 29,072 feet. This means the water had to rise 726.8 feet every single day.

A gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds. Using the above gallons falling, we get 249,135,760,000,000,000,000 pounds of water spread across the whole Earth’s surface of 5,489,572,000,000,000 square feet. That’s thus 45,383.457 pounds per square foot.

The Ark is said to be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide. That’s 33-750 square feet of upward facing surface area, if we view it from above as a simple rectangle. That means this ark was being hit by 1,531,691,673.75 pounds of water every day, for 40 days.

If we assume the lower bounds of the rain clouds was 6500 feet, globally, and our weight for a gallon of water, the kinetic energy released by a single gallons of water would be 74,146.016 Joules of energy. Thus, the Earth would be getting hit with 2,214,918,900,000,000,000,000,000 Joules, or 531,580,540,000,000 gigatons of TNT.

Daily. For 40 days.

The energy release of this magnitude would turn the surface molten, not even bacteria would survive and water would be vaporized instantly.

https://www.wunderground.com/.../what-is-the-most-rain-to...

And finally, you said:

**4. Not true there were Greek warships that could survive sea that were made of the same things as the ark also it’s not a boat it’s a ship okay the ark was huge and it had multiple floors about three floors not just one. Not onto to your more moronic claims. ***

My response:

There has never been an all wood vessel the size of the ark constructed which could withstand open water sailing. The number of floors are irrelevant to this.

You said:
***6. Really I don’t think so buddy not if you have God in your side***

My response:
God magic isn’t an argument.

You said:
***7. They took babies on the ark so that destroys the rest of your three nonsensical objections. Lack of human fossils? 95 percent of the fossil record are sea creatures so not a surprise in the first place if you really think about it. ***

My response:
Taking babies doesn’t change the dietary or waste management needs. Cats, for example, require animal protein to live. Without it, they get sick and eventually die. They need to eat meat. Where was the meat for all the cat species?

Why are no fossils found of humans which can be attributed to a flood event?

You said:
***10. Incest was allowed for the first 2500 years of creation to populate the earth and then it was banned by God in Leviticus chapter 18:6-18 and also our genetics would have been stronger back then and more diverse when God first created us and then when humans spreaded out we got more mutations and adaptation, so not impossible if you really think about it, ***

My response:
“Genetics would have been stronger” is a nonsense phrase. It has no meaning. Incest has nothing to do with any “strength” of genes. It has to do with closely related individuals bringing more recessive traits to expression due to the overlap of their very similar genetic sequences. This means harmful traits would be more easily expressed and thus show up in offspring. Also, mutations occur in every generation. An average human receives 60 to 200 mutations from their parents and pass along about the same number of new ones to offspring.

You said:
***also you believe you came from 2 apes 200,000 years ago that’s the exact same amount of incest as Adam and Eve hypocrite.***

My response:
ROFLMAO!!! Nonsense. I believe no such thing nor is there ANY science which says that. POPULATIONS evolve. Not individuals.



Last edited by Admin on Mon May 25, 2020 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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2Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Sun May 03, 2020 5:31 am

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what kind of plumbing? Just curious. Additionally, how does each animal line up to receive its particular type of food. Fresh plants, insects and of course, meat, ( no refrigerators). Who feeds them and how is it stored and dispensed. Ridiculous! Additionally, too few humans to feed so many animals. And finally, how are they separated safely enough so that some don’t eat some of the others as many are naturally predators and others, prey? Nope, impossible.


Claim: That does not explain how it first got pushed up out of the ground, and then pulled back underground. The hydraulics does not work out. Most of the water on the continents is interstitial, ie between rock particles and in fissures. Basically, the water table is full everywhere. The pressure on the water is such that it is in equilibrium with the weight of the minerals around it.
Reply:



Last edited by Admin on Mon May 25, 2020 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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3Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Tue May 19, 2020 3:34 pm

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Question: Why was the WOODEN structure not burnt to a cinder when it was overlaid by VOLCANIC ROCK?
Reply: it says "volcanic Rocks and ice", not that it was buried by an eruption. Broken volcanic rocks appear consistent with the broken open "deep springs" -- subterranean water -- which have been confirmed by science. Even more so does ice comport with the account.



Last edited by Admin on Wed May 20, 2020 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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4Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Tue May 19, 2020 9:34 pm

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Claim: Noah would have used the wood of the ark to build houses etc. and probably not much would have remained.
Reply: This tall mountain would soon be snowcapped, the permanently frozen ship should have been preserved unless the wood was somehow carried down the mountain. Noah's family, who lived for years in tents, would have probably not devoted scarce resources to such a difficult and unnecessary task. They did not need this wood. Because wood floats, not just numerous trees but worked timbers from many wooden structures would have been lying on or near the surface wherever humans formerly lived.

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5Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Wed May 20, 2020 6:56 am

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Claim: Noah did not land on Mount Ararat But in the Book of Genesis, the mountains of Ararat (Biblical Hebrew הָרֵי אֲרָרָט, Tiberian hārēy Ǎrārāṭ,) is the term used to designate the region in which Noah's Ark comes to rest after the Great Flood. The actual mountain was mount Judi.
Reply: Hebrew rrt (no vowels), Assyrian reference to nation or Urartu, also translated Ararat or Armenia. Must be the highest mountain in Ararat because tops of surrounding mountains not seen for another 10 weeks. The Ark had necessarily to rest near the top of Mount Ararat.


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6Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Wed May 20, 2020 11:37 am

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They could tell by all the penguin, kangaroo, and koala carcasses in the area. Oh, wait ...

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7Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Wed May 20, 2020 6:41 pm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZtbZGtiGA&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMJP95iZJqEjmc5oxY5r6BzP

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8Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Thu May 21, 2020 1:47 pm

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40,000 animals on a boat? What did the elephants do for exercise. And what did the lions eat - monkeys? air you serious?

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How Did Animals Spread All Over the World from Where the Ark Landed?
https://answersingenesis.org/animal-behavior/migration/how-did-animals-spread-from-where-ark-landed/

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10Objections to Noah's flood Empty Which Animals Were On the Ark with Noah? on Thu May 21, 2020 9:53 pm

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Which Animals Were On the Ark with Noah?
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/baraminology/which-animals-were-on-the-ark-with-noah/

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11Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 am

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If you accept flood geology as a fact, the ark can not be on mount Ararat since it is a strata volcano that must have formed after the flood waters had receded

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12Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Sun May 24, 2020 10:50 am

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'We've found Noah's Ark!'... claim evangelical explorers on mission to snow-capped Ararat (but British scientists say 'show us your evidence')

UPDATED: 14:50 BST, 28 April 2010

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269165/Noahs-Ark-remains-discovered-mountain-Turkey.html

So Christians believe that Noah had 40,000 species on his ark, but there are clearly more than 40,000 species alive today. Shouldn't that mean that they believe in evolution? Only, they don't. So that would mean that God would have had to do whatever he does to create species since the time people were smart enough to build wooden ships, so that would mean we would observe him doing this when new species arrive on Earth. Why can't evolution simply be what we see happening when he does this! Nobody's ever seen a species just "appear" out of no where and it's stupid to refuse something that's as factual as the fact we exist. Evolution doesn't prove God one way or the other, but it is proven, and I'm on neither side with this argument, but if evolution is proven then it must be they way by which God makes new species to Christians. You can't say Noah only saved 40,000 species and be as stubborn to say that evolution doesn't exist. It just doesn't work both ways.

Kinds - cat, dog, horse, mouse. For a more detailed view of "kind", look up baraminology. - Steve, Kent, 30/4/2010 22:09 So 36 species of wild cat have evolved in less than 5,000 years? 50+ species of mouse in less than 5,000 years? Darwin rules! Evolution is proved and accepted. The timescales are a bit shorter than Darwin said, but hey, the basic principles are right. I'm impressed - 36 species of wild cat evolve from a common ancestor in less than 5,000 years. I have looked up baraminology - let's juST say that it as scieNtific as most of Creationism and ID - i.e. not at all. But at least we agree that Tigers, Lions, Leopards all evolved from a common ancestor. I don't think it happened as quickly as you do, but at least we agree on the principles.

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13Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Mon May 25, 2020 12:45 pm

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How Mythology Disproves Noahs Flood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrDTaHjg2IQ&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMJP95iZJqEjmc5oxY5r6BzP&index=9&t=0s


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14Objections to Noah's flood Empty Re: Objections to Noah's flood on Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 am

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Question : what is the best evidence that the flood was global ?
Reply:  The global or nearly global extent of many strata or groups of strata I think is the best evidence that the Flood was global.

"Coal measures (strata) typically have a layer of coal (fossil trees) covered by mud, then another layer of coal, the mudstone, et cetera, up to six or more times."
It may be that you think the Biblical flood was a single deposition, though this is not the YEC claim. You are likely aware of tides, caused by the moon's gravity. Now think about what the tides would be like if there was no land to mitigate it: the tidal bulges would be much more pronounced. This would cause drastic changes in water level twice daily and thus result in many erosional and depositional events of the year of the Flood.
We see ripples (crossbedding) in sandstone layers including those exposed in the walls of the Grand Canyon. Those ripples indicate both that the sand was deposited underwater and that the water was moving.
"Besides, limestone does not form in floods."

Sediment is deposited in floods. It doesn't turn to rock, ie., limestone, until later.
"It is caused by slowly precipitated silt sediments at only a few mm or cm per year. So, one single flood does not explain the strata."
This is indeed the long ager claim, and they also claim the water was stagnant in order for the organisms to not be eaten nor decomposed before they were buried. Many strata show paleocurrents, which is a result of water flow. Thus the claim of stagnant water is shown to be false for all strata which have paleocurrents.

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