So you agree that God made humans imperfect so he could kill them. ?
There is a "price" that comes with free will. God created little creators
who are created in His conscious and spiritual image. These cognitive
beings (humans) are self-generating when it comes to volition/will.
The purposes for this are multifaceted. One purpose involves love.
In true love, you can't say yes if you can't say no. Just like with
obedience...you can't have the ability to obey if you can't have the
ability to disobey. You can't agree with God if you don't have the
ability to disagree with God, etc. Yet God is Holy and will not fellowship
with those tainted with disobedience (unless it is forgiven through
Christ's Sacrifice) so free will becomes a danger to a creature of
volition. God does NOT create this moral evil....it is however a
potential byproduct of free will (BUT not a normal causal system
where byproducts are caused by events). When we say byproduct
we are referring to "ability."
I believe the statement "God made humans imperfect "so" He
could kill them" a rather shallow statement that misses the complexities
of life after death, rewards, punishment based on works, and even
more importantly the equivocation on the English word "imperfect"
as it relates to beings who are "in process" to a final state.
IOW, Adam and Eve were perfectly what they were meant to be
at the time of their creation...but how could Adam be "perfect"
in terms of "completeness" if he didn't know how much God loved
him? If he didn't know about God's Self-Sacrificing love and how
God would be willing to become a Man and die in His place?
Please understand that this is NOT process theology or any form
of open theism. This is systematic theology which takes into account
a temporary creation for the purposes of dealing with the REAL problem
of moral evil/sin....not a problem of explaining it...but rather how it is
a problem for a cognitive being with libertarian free will ....because of
the absolute Holiness of God.
Did God make A & E knowing they would fall? Absolutely. Did God allow
the inevitable byproduct of free will (moral evil) to be committed sooner
than later by testing A & E with a tree and forbidden fruit which may have
sped up the process of the inevitable for the human race? (I reserve the
right to reword much of that last statement and make clarifications which
are more precise in the future, btw). I believe so. It is all part of the
purpose of the temporary creation to deal with the real problem of evil
for God's adopted children so that they will never WANT to sin against
a holy God (and it is accomplishing much more than that).
For instance, there is a quality of a love relationship that comes through
forgiveness and restoration. There is a quality of love relationship that
comes from knowing another in such relationship (back to God's Self-
Sacrificing love demonstrated to the children He is adopting out of this
There is much more when we approach this systematically. Ultimately
this deals with the Glory of God and the fact that the truth about
multiple things (justice, grace (that we do not deserve to have the
perfect holy Creator living inside us, having fellowship with us, etc)
that will not be hidden. They will be reveal for all of eternity.
If God makes no mistakes he could have created perfect humans.
God DID create them "sinless" at the time they were created but perhaps
you are confusing "ability to become morally imperfect" with innate
imperfection. The complication here is that God created little creators in
His universe who need to learn not to create moral evil (sin debt).
One thing that this has to do with is the way in which we spin the
English word perfect in the midst of the complexities of the temporary
creation. For instance, the temporary creation is perfectly what it is meant
to be...with all of its entropy and destruction, etc. Second, A & E were
perfectly what they were meant to be - created good without moral
evil, yet they had the ability to love...the ability to obey (and therefore
disobey) and the ability to agree with God (or disagree with God).
This is part of having libertarian free will which is necessary for genuine
love relationship. Did God create them knowing that evil would some
day exist? Absolutely. The truth about good and evil will not be hidden.
just as the truth about suffering vs pleasure will not be hidden. Or joy/
sadness or love/hate/indifference or faith/doubt trust/uncertainty etc.
All of these contrasts will not be hidden and are very important to
understand the role of knowledge in the temporary creation.
God makes no mistakes. He created the temporary creation knowing
we would sin and disobey (knowing He would restore some).
God is perfecting His adopted children through Jesus Christ and His
Perfect sacrifice AND through the temporary creation and all of its
purposes. Those that do not receive adoption will have to answer for
every moral decision that they ever made wrong...against a perfectly
Holy (unfathomably Holy) Creator Who will fully demonstrate just
how bad/evil sin is.
We are all going to die...the only question is "when" and what is your
relationship to the Holy Creator when you finally DO die and stand before
Him in judgement. You want grace....you do not want justice. Both
are perfect!!! Question everything.
Why not? Is God bound by human laws?
God can not do anything unlawful because He is the logical Law
Giver and owns everything. Clearly God the Father is not bound
by ANY law...especially not human...
but it is important to understand that God does not do anything
that is contrary to His Own nature. God is a logical God and a
God of Order. This is NOT a limitation because this Logic and
Order are infinite.
Look at the Decalogue and you will see how they do NOT apply
to God. Can God steal? No. He owns everything (except
moral evil created by little creators in God's universe). Can God
commit adultery? Nonsense - since God is neither male nor female
in the sexual sense. Can God commit murder? God knows the
number of days we all have and He allows (is in control of) the
total number of seconds anyone will live. God does NOT kill a
person the way in which a fellow human does...that is nonsense..
God IS however in control of (different and distinct from "controlling"
free will agents) the sum total of all circumstances and what He
allows through His permissive will.
God owns everyone and therefore can take any person home
or send any person to judgment through the sum total of all
circumstances of His permissive will... this does NOT mean
that those who commit murder are not responsible for their
choices... they do NOT own another fellow slave (we are all
logical slaves....systematically whether obedient or disobedient).
Some of us get adopted into sonship/daughtership and become
the children of God.
And yet the book you base your God claims on describes him doing exactly this on multiple occasions.
The bible isn't just one book.... it is a library of books...a collection
of scrolls from various prophets and apostles.
Much of the O.T. uses anthropomorphic language and is not philosophically
precise in the way in which we speak in the English. IOW, there is a
tremendous amount of inexactism and hyperbole as well as things
such as phenomenological language. When it says God is going to
do something or bring something to pass... it doesn't tell you the
process involving free will that God is going to use.
NOW, if you are speaking (writing) about God ordering people to
be killed...this is God's judgment and His logical right since He owns
everyone and everything. By what standard of moral basis would
you appeal to to somehow say that God did something "wrong"
once you grant the God concept of Owner and Creator of the universe?
God sets the standard for what is good in His own universe by His
very Will and Nature. God is not a man that He could somehow
break a "law." His Will IS the (moral) law of the universe.
This is what most people do not understand.
They don't even understand how good and evil are NOT exact opposites.
the God of the Bible is explicitly depicted as doing evil thing,
Name one "evil" thing that God did... please understand that we use the
English word "evil" to describe natural evil....but natural disasters are
not evil at all...they affect everyone that is injured or dies differently
and are part of the natural order that God sustains. Nothing that God
does is (or can be) evil.
such as committing mass murder,
God is the Law Giver and God owns everyone's life. Since God IS the law
it is philosophically impossible for God to do something "unlawful." To
claim that God committed mass murder is nonsense. We ALL die...it is
just a matter of when and how. So the circumstances that God ordains
to have the elderly die of old age medical complications is now murder?
Nonsense. It is no more murder than God bringing forth the natural order
of any natural disaster.
and commanding people to commit genocide.
God's judgment and God's logical right. IF the orders are from God THEN
it is not unlawful. Do you have any idea how "evil" a lot of those groups of
people were that Israel was commanded to kill? Ever see the movie
Why is it that God can act outside of his own morality?
This is somewhat of a pseudo question in that it is a question with either
a false assumption or it is improperly phrased. What do you mean by
"his own morality?" IF you mean "the law" that He gives to finite created
beings then this is not a law that properly applies to an Infinite Creator
for multiple reasons. If you mean "His own nature" or a moral code that
applies to God then it is a question with a false assumption. God never
acts outside of His own nature...but His nature is complex and has
multiple aspects/characteristics/attributes which are more than any
single attribute (such as love).
Is he only sometimes good?
The standard for moral good is logically set by God's very will and His
perfect nature. Saying God is good is like saying God is God. God sets
the "standard" for what is logically good in His own universe which He
alone created all matter/things that are in it (with the exception of
things such as moral evil which are created by "little creators" in
God's universe who are created in His conscious image).
God did NOT create "evil." God DID create the universe knowing
evil would exist. God DID allow evil to exist. God DID create the
cognitive beings (angels and humans) who would have the *ability*
to create such moral evil.
Love, genuine relationship, agreement, true worship, etc. can not
exist without such *ability.*
Do we not have the ability to know good from evil?
Not unless moral evil were to exist so that we could contrast the difference
between "good" and "evil." But good and evil are not exact opposites.
Evil is NOT the standard by which good is judged.... Good is the standard
by which evil is judged. You can have Good and not have evil (God alone
self-existing). You can NOT have evil unless the standard for which to
judge it (God/good) first exists (or self-exists).
God "who makes no mistakes" didn't successfully create humans "not to create moral evil" so your God theory is false.
God's success will be fully demonstrated in heaven. This is not process
theology but rather systematic theology which understands the temporary
creation as a whole and understands the inevitable byproduct and ability
of human free will.... and how God is accomplishing multiple things which
will glorify Him/Jesus in the end when all is accounted for.
What you don't yet understand is how moral evil was inevitable to exist
and how God is successfully dealing with it with a temporary creation.
Consequences for actions must be experienced or observed in actuality
to be known.... and it is so much more than this when it comes to
knowledge of contrasts.
But the text upon which you base your assertions of his existence portrays him as a very illogical, disorderly God of changeable disposition, who often acts based on emotion instead of reason.
First, God's existence is not based on the "bible." If it were...that would
be circular reasoning. The way in which the scriptures are first used in a
cumulative case argument is for comparative religions....and is to "identify"
which monotheistic Creator fits with the cumulative case from reason
that is build from agnostic theism and candidate creatorts "to" the God
of Abraham (so the scriptures are used to identify that the God of Abraham
best fits the monotheistic expectations - they are not used to prove
On your second point, is true that the prophets often spoke of God in a
very human way. It was anthropocentric of them to do this. as well as
anthropomorphic and we identify this in biblical theology all of the time.
But we use logic to interpret the bible. Logic is the greatest hermeneutic
we have. Systematic theology is based on logic and interprets the
scriptures based on the consistency of God's characteristics. That is
why we don't compare God's righteous indignation to human anger
because God is omniscient and already knew what He would allow to
take place. There are dozens of other examples in how we would not
compare an infinite Creator to human behavior.
How can you claim that he owns everything one second, and then immediately claim that he doesn't own the "moral evil" that we create?
A good God can co-own all of the moral good in the universe and disown
all of the moral bad. This is because "sin" or moral evil is NOT optimal for
the individual who commits it. God does not create sin...this is a basic
axiom in systematic theology. Sin is created by little creators in God's
universe who are created in God's conscious/spiritual image.
God could not judge sin if He created it or caused it. We are not God's
puppets or God's robots. We are self-generating cognitive beings with
the ability to make absolute choices (free to choose between options).
The only possible way for him not to own the "moral evil" we create is if the things we create don't automatically belong to him. If the things we create don't automatically belong to him, then it must necessarily be possible for us to create things that he doesn't own.
Make certain you do not have equivocation here with the word "things."
Anything made up of the matter God created and sustains God clearly owns.
Anything God created God owns.
When we talk about moral evil specifically (sin) then we are talking about
something non-physical. It is an action performed by the little creators
free will. This is something that is AGAINST God...because the Creator
should always be logically obeyed. He is the Perfect Authority in the
universe and is supreme above all authorities (or He's not God).
God is not responsible for your or my sin.
No, he doesn't kill by stabbing or shooting like humans do. He strikes people down out of anger over their irreverent acts (2 Samuel 6:6-7), or as punishment for their disobedience (Genesis 38:10).
2 Samuel 6 is a difficult passage because even David was upset. The language
is clearly anthropomorphic. With the Holiness of God and with the
symbolism and holiness of the ark there were certain "rules" that were
An omniscient God knew in advance that this would happen but the
truth of what it demonstrated was important to deter anyone in the
future wrongfully touching the ark. There were multiple things accomplished.
In Genesis 38 Onan was supposed to fulfill a duty based on Hebrew
custom/tradition/mandate. He withheld his seed and that was a
big no no for him. We live today in an age of grace where God is
offering salvation through the work that Jesus did on the Cross. We
need to understand that in this time period God was dealing with
people in a way that we would call harsh. God has never been under
any obligation to allow any person to live even one more day.
This is what people today do not understand. Any taking of life
on God's part was always fully justified because humans were already
under the curse of original sin. It was never wrong for God to judge
someone on the spot....nor was it wrong for Him to judge a whole
nation. God alone is the Owner and Giver of all life.
Throughout the old testament your God is repeatedly described as causing people to die prematurely. I don't see how this couldn't be regarded as murder.
In God's universe it is clearly not "unlawful" killing for one...because God
is the Giver and Taker of all life if He chooses. God is the rightful judge.
It should be obvious that God is not the same as a fellow human who
does not own you.
People are not property. But even if they were, then it would still be murder.
No human or angel should own a human. God owns us all. God owns
what He creates. It is not murder because we would have to say God
murdered us all (which is nonsense) when He pronounced the penalty of
dying for Adam eating the fruit (and the "dying ye shall die.") God is the
Giver and Taker of all life through the sum total of all circumstances.
The complexity is that humans are absolutely responsible for their free
will involved in killing another person. God owns everyone...people do
not own fellow slaves. When you kill a fellow slave you are actually
sinning against the Slave Master (God). All sin is logically against the
Creator in some form - even when we sin against each other.
Judgement is not murder. God is the logical judge in His universe.
I'm questioning your assertions. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
This whole discussion is regarding the philosophical consistency of the
O.T. and whether or not the God of the bible is somehow a psychopath
or whether His is a Holy God and we are the ones who are the problem.
How we know there is a God and whether God is the God of Abraham
written about in the O.T. is a completely different discussion.
Is there any way for anyone to verify any of the extraordinary assertions you're making in this thread are factual representations of reality, and not merely figments of your imagination?
They are based on Christian theology and on the O.T. and whether or
not it is consistent with a proper God concept.
There is a distinction between knowing there is a God and knowing
whether or not Christianity or historical Judaism is true. Christianity
requires spiritual conviction and is based on faith (via a preponderance
of specific evidence).
As far as my imagination is concerned... the truth about Jesus or the
God of Abraham existed thousands of years before my imagination
could have ever been involved. Such historical truth is independent
of my personal existence.
Who would want to worship a slave driver?
Not a slave driver, but a logical Slave Master/Owner. God owns all of us
as the Creator whether you like it or not. That is why He has the cosmic
right to JUDGE you someday. Not only does God own what He creates
but even if it was just "might makes right" God has "infinite might" to
enforce His absolute right.
And to answer your question: I would want to worship a Perfect Slave
Master IF He was Perfect and Created Me. In fact, I would beg Him to
adopt me as His adopted child....especially if His Only Unique True Son
paid the penalty for my sin and paid for my adoption to Him.
Yes, I would want to worship a Perfect Creator and serve Him for
eternity. He already logically owns me.... now I want to be His child
so I can have a Father/Child relationship with Him.
It is sad to see the lies which are written here about the Heavenly Father
because of a lack of understanding regarding the righteousness of His
judgment on the human race...and how no one has the right to even
live one single more day (to continue sinning against Him).
Pray to remove the blindness of false beliefs and ask God to help you
see the light of the truth of His Perfection and Holiness.