ElShamah - Reason & Science: Defending ID and the Christian Worldview
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ElShamah - Reason & Science: Defending ID and the Christian Worldview

Welcome to my library—a curated collection of research and original arguments exploring why I believe Christianity, creationism, and Intelligent Design offer the most compelling explanations for our origins. Otangelo Grasso


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What comes first, mind or matter?

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1What comes first, mind or matter? Empty What comes first, mind or matter? Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:30 am

Otangelo


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What comes first, mind or matter?

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1380-what-comes-first-mind-or-matter

The argument of the mind of all matter in the universe
1. “The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘the notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’”
2. The 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics solved the problem of the Universe’s nature. Bright physicists were again led to believe what is for atheists the unbelievable — that the Universe is mental.
3. According to Sir James Jeans an astronomer, mathematician and physicists of Princeton University: “the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter…we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter.”
4. Matter cannot produce mind but rather a thoughtful mind can produce structures of matter. If we leave all the molecules or atoms of the brain on a pile under Mother Nature’s sky no brain or mind will ever be produced by thunderbolts, high pressures or typhoons. But a person with a mind can create e.g. a computer.
5. This means mind pre-existed to matter.
6. A mind is a property of a person and the mind of the universe can only be God’s.
7. God exists.

Paul Davies: Matter is made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of electrons and nuclei, which are made of protons and neutrons. There has been a widespread belief (since ancient Greece) that this chain of explanation will have an end; that there exists a small number of truly elementary particles that have no internal parts and which are the building blocks of all matter. At present, this theory receives strong experimental support in the shape of the so-called quark theory.

God is simple and uncaused.
The Universe is complex and finite.

Can we really accept it as a brute, inexplicable fact? Yet a single, simple, infinite mind (though the logic of even its existence may be perplexing to us) seems an altogether more plausible candidate for something that exists of necessity.

Energy, rather than an eternal, conscious mind as the first cause of the universe?

Some try to substitute God as a first cause by claiming that energy was always there, eternally, stored in a singularity, and caused the universe suddenly into being by a quantum fluctuation event. Planck regarded matter/energy as derivative from consciousness. What would be the contrary? Consciousness derivative from energy. If it were so, over an unknown length of time, energy would have become cognitive and self-aware, even learning the how's and why's of becoming other perceivable forms. It would gain perception, thinking, free will, moral judgment, and memory.  But  logical laws must be already a priori existent to make distinctions, syllogistic thinking with induction and deduction at play. Einstein recognized the absurdity of this claim. He described the "gulf' that logically separates the concrete world of hard objects on the one hand from the abstract world of ideas on the other. A small part of the materialist's problem is that hard objects are never observed spontaneously to transform themselves (on their own recognizance) into abstract ideas.

W.L.Craig writes :
The only way to have an eternal cause but a temporal effect would seem to be if the cause is a personal agent who freely chooses to create an effect in time. For example, a man sitting from eternity may will to stand up; hence, a temporal effect may arise from an eternally existing agent. Indeed, the agent may will from eternity to create a temporal effect, so that no change in the agent need be conceived. Thus, we are brought not merely to the first cause of the universe, but to its personal Creator.

Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness: 5 Experiments
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rqqkxxQighIbyqtE0VeBZmu9D3GvUQfO5v1xwOTyp_E/edit

Wiki:
The mind is a set of cognitive faculties including consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, and memory.
Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. It has been defined variously in terms of sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood or soul, the fact that there is something "that it is like" to "have" or "be" it, and the executive control system of the mind, or the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself

Max Planck, theoretical physicist who originated quantum theory, which won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918
“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”  
Eugene Wigner, theoretical physicist and mathematician. He received a share of the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963
“It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.”

R.C. Henry,  Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University ,  “The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005) ?  He wrote:
“A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the universe is a “mental” construction.

Sir James Jeans Pioneering physicist  wrote:
“The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.”

Sir Arthur Eddington explained:
“It is difficult for the matter-of-fact physicist to accept the view that the substratum of everything is of mental character.”

Newton called light “particles”, knowing the concept to be an ‘effective theory’ — useful, not true. As noted by Newton’s biographer Richard Westfall:
“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’” Newton knew of Newton’s rings and was untroubled by what is shallowly called ‘wave/particle duality’.

The notion that random molecular movement and “emergence” from this can explain subjective experience is a bankrupt theory. The word “emergence” is used when the mechanism is not understood. 3

Einstein's Gulf: Can Evolution cross it? by John Oller, Ph.d
Albert Einstein,undoubtedly one of the greatest scientists of all time, described the "gulf' that logically separates the concrete world of hard objects on the one hand from the abstract world of ideas on the other. He wrote: We have the habit of combining certain concepts and conceptual relations (propositions) so definitely with certain sense experiences that we do not become conscious of the gulf-logically unbridgeable which separates the world of sensory experiences from the world of concepts and propositions


On the one side, we find the real world of objects, events, and tensional spacetime relations. On the other side, we find fully abstract representations that contain information about the material world. That articulate information is abstracted first by our senses, secondarily by our bodily actions, and tertiarily by our ability to use one or more particular languages . Between the two realms we find what appears to be an uncrossable gulf.


A small part of the materialists problem is that hard objects are never observed spontaneously to transform themselves (on their own recognizance) into abstract ideas.


Albert Einstein, “Remarks on Bertrand Russell’s Theory of Knowledge,” The Philosophy of Bertrand Russell, Vol. 5 of The Library of Living Philosophers, editor Paul Arthur Schilpp (LaSalle, Illinois, Open Court, 1944), p. 289.


I am convinced that ... the concepts which arise in our thought and in our linguistic expressions are all—when viewed logically—the free creations of thought which cannot inductively be gained from sense experiences. ... we have the habit of combining certain concepts and conceptual relations (propositions) so definitely with certain sense experiences that we do not become conscious of the gulf—logically unbridgeable—which separates the world of sensory experiences from the world of concepts and propositions


WHAT COMES FIRST, MIND OR MATTER? 1
And the best way to get clear about idealism is to compare it to its opposite – materialism. First there was a dead universe of matter and energy. Then some portion of matter became alive and eventually evolved into organisms that developed conscious minds. That is the position of a materialist.


The challenge of strict materialism is its reductionist necessity to reduce all of reality to material interactions. Sometimes this can be a hard pill to swallow and impossible ultimately to explain convincingly in every instance.Therefore aesthetic qualities and moral values are ever in danger of being seen only as subjective opinions and not matters of fact.


“Consciousness Creates Reality” – Physicists Admit The Universe Is Immaterial, Mental & Spiritual 
“Consciousness creates reality,” a statement that has gained a lot of attention across various alternative media outlets around the world. Make no mistake, consciousness has been (for quite some time) studied by numerous scientists, especially in its relation to quantum physics and how it might be correlated with the nature of our reality.
What is consciousness? Consciousness includes a number of things. It’s how we perceive our world, our thoughts, being aware, our intentions and more.


“Looking for consciousness in the brain is like looking in the radio for the announcer.” – Nasseim Haramein, director of research for the Resonance Project
“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”  

Eugene Wigner, theoretical physicist and mathematician. He received a share of the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963
“It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.


The statement that “consciousness creates reality” comes with a number of different questions. Does this mean we as individuals (and on a collective level as one human race) can shape and create whatever reality we’d like for ourselves? Does it mean we can manifest a certain lifestyle, and attract certain experiences? Does it happen instantly? Does it take time? How do we do it?
Although we might not be able to answer these questions with absolute scientific certainty, we do know that yes, a correlation between consciousness and our physical material world does indeed exist in some way, shape or form. The extent of that correlation (again from a modern day scientific point of view) is still not well understood, but we know of the correlation, and we know it must have some sort of significance.



R.C. Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University ,  “The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005) (source)


“A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the universe is a “mental” construction. Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” 



The Science Behind The Statement “Consciousness Creates Reality”

The quantum double slit experiment is a very popular experiment used to examine how consciousness and our physical material world are intertwined. It is a great example that documents how factors associated with consciousness and our physical material world are connected in some way.
One potential revelation of this experience is that “the observer creates the reality.” A paper published in the peer-reviewed journal Physics Essays by Dean Radin, PhD, explains how this experiment has been used multiple times to explore the role of consciousness in shaping the nature of physical reality. (source)
In this experiment, a double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wave-function. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double slit spectral power to its single slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. The study found that factors associated with consciousness “significantly” correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double slit interference pattern. (source)


“Observation not only disturbs what has to be measured, they produce it. We compel the electron to assume a definite position. We ourselves produce the results of the measurement.” (source)

Although this is one of the most popular experiments used to posit the connection between consciousness and physical reality, there are several other  studies that clearly show that consciousness, or factors that are associated with consciousness are directly correlated with our reality in some way. A number of experiments in the field of parapsychology have also demonstrated this.
Sure, we might not understand the extent of this connection, and in most cases scientists can’t even explain it. However they are, and have been observed time and time again.
Below is a video  demonstration from the film “What The Bleep Do We Know.”

Other examples that we’ve written about are government sponsored psychokinesis experiments, the global consciousness experiment, intelligence agency remote viewing experiments, thoughts and intentions altering the structure of water, the placebo effect, teleportation studies and more. You can find more details about those specific experiments HERE.
Some other related CE articles that relate to this subject are listed below:

Buddhist Monks Bless Tea With Good Intention
Fascinating Study Shows Human Intention Can Help Heal Cancer Patients


How We Can Incorporate This Information Into Our Lives & Use Consciousness To Transform The World


Change requires action, but the place within which that action comes from is most important.
Modern day science, especially quantum physics, has been catching up to ancient mysticism and concepts that are/were so deeply ingrained in various cultures throughout the ancient world. One great example of this is the fact that everything is energy , and nothing is solid. You can read more about that here.

“We are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts, with our thoughts we make the world.” – Gautama Buddha
“Broadly speaking, although there are some differences, I think Buddhist philosophy and Quantum Mechanics can shake hands on their view of the world. We can see in these great examples the fruits of human thinking. Regardless of the admiration we feel for these great thinkers, we should not lose sight of the fact that they were human beings just as we are.” – Dalai Lama (source)


A great example of quantum physics meeting ancient wisdom is seen in the fact that Nikola Tesla was influenced by Vedic philosophy when pondering his ideas of zero point energy. You can read more about that here.
So why is this relevant? It’s relevant because new physics, as mentioned above, is pointing to the fact that the observer shapes the reality. The way we think and perceive could be  responsible and play a vital role in the physical construct we see in front of us.


“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” Unknown

If we look at the world and examine it on a collective level, what do we see? How do we perceive it? Right now, the masses perceive it as being born, going to school, paying bills, raising a family and finding a “job” within the current paradigm to support yourself. No judgement here, but many people on the planet are not resonating with this experience. They want change. We’ve been repeating and perceiving our reality this way for a very long time, with very little information about what is really happening on and to our planet. It’s almost like we are robotic drones that are trained and brainwashed to accept things the way they are. To not question what is happening in our world and to continue on with the status quo, only caring for ourselves and our own lives. As Noam Chomsky would say, our consent has been manufactured. If we continue down this path and continue to perceive and view reality as “this is just the way it is,” we will, in essence, prolong that type of existence and experience for the human race without ever changing it.
In order to create and manifest a new reality for ourselves, our thought patters and the way we perceive reality must change. What changes the way we perceive reality? Information does. When new information emerges it changes the way we look at things and as a result, our reality changes, and we begin to manifest a new experience and open our minds to a broader view of reality. Not to say that we can’t manifest a new physical form in the blink of an eye, and that we are not capable of doing that, but it appears to be something that takes time, something gradual, something we don’t quite understand yet.
What’s also important about teachings from new physics is that, if factors of consciousness are associated with the creation of our reality, that means change starts within. It starts with the way in which we are observing the outer world from our inner world. This touches on the earlier point of how we perceive our reality. Our perception of the external world might very well be a reflection of our inner world, our inner state of being. So ask yourself, are you happy? Are you observing, perceiving and acting from a place of love? From a place of hate or anger? From a place of peace? All of these factors are associated with our consciousness, with our observation, the one (or the many) who are doing the “observing” might play a large role in what type of physical world the human race manifests for itself, what do you think?
We are indeed the observers,  can we create change and break patterns to open up new possibilities, change our direction, all through the way in which we observe ourselves, others and the world around us.
I believe that the human race is in the process of waking up to a number of different things, simultaneously. As a result, the way we perceive and “observe” the world around us (on a mass scale) is starting to drastically change. So if you want to help change the world, change the way you look at things, and the things you look at will change.

“Be the change you want to see in the world.” – Mahatma Ghandi
There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement.” 


This statement (worldview statement) was by Lord Kelvin in 1900, which was shattered only five years later when Einstein published his paper on special relativity. The new theories proposed by Einstein challenged the current (at that time) framework of understanding. This forced the scientific community to open up to an alternate view of the true nature of our reality. A great example of how things that once were regarded as truth have changed.



Terje Toftenes (source)
“Lord Kelvins statements bares with it the voice of paradigms past…We knew that the Earth was flat, we knew that we were the center of the universe, and we knew that a manmade heavier than air piece of machinery could not take flight. Through all stages of human history, intellectual authorities have pronounced their supremacy by ridiculing or suppressing elements of reality that simply didn’t fit within the framework of accepted knowledge. Are we really any different today? Have we really changed our acceptance towards things that won’t fit the frame? Maybe there are concepts of our reality we have yet to understand, and if we open our eyes maybe we will see that something significant has been overlooked.”


Decoding reality - Information is fundamental
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t3035-decoding-reality-information-is-fundamental

Near Death experience, evidence of dualism
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1284-near-death-experience-evidence-of-dualism

The Mind is Not The Brain
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1662-the-mind-is-not-the-brain#2581



The mind cannot emerge from matter
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1283-einstein-s-gulf

[size=13]1) http://philosophyisnotaluxury.com/2011/06/16/what-comes-first-mind-or-matter/
2) http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/11/11/consciousness-creates-reality-physicists-admit-the-universe-is-immaterial-mental-spiritual/

3. http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/where-is-mind-in-nature
[/size]



Last edited by Otangelo on Sat May 22, 2021 4:50 pm; edited 33 times in total

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

2What comes first, mind or matter? Empty Re: What comes first, mind or matter? Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:52 am

Otangelo


Admin

What comes first, mind or matter? The_me10
What comes first, mind or matter? Sem_ty12
Henry A Rowland, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Nature 7 July 2005 wrote:

The 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics solved the problem of the Universe’s nature. Bright physicists were again led to believe the unbelievable — this time, that the Universe is mental. According to Sir James Jeans: “the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter... we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter.”The Universe is immaterial, mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. 

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com

Otangelo


Admin

Nothing exists outside of the Mind! God is Mind. Matter is an illusion of Consciousness.

https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1380-what-comes-first-mind-or-matter#6038

When someone watches a movie, and sees smooth motion, when looking closely, what someone realizes is it's all discrete frames and pixels of color.

Werner Heisenberg
“The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts.” 3

I think that modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language. 4

Of course, we all know that our own reality depends on the structure of our consciousness; we can objectify no more than a small part of our world. But even when we try to probe into the subjective realm, we cannot ignore the central order…In the final analysis, the central order, or 'the one' as it used to be called and with which we commune in the language of religion, must win out.

Sir James Hopwood Jeans
Today there is a wide measure of agreement, which on the physical side of science approaches almost to unanimity, that the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears as an accidental intruder into the realm of matter; we are beginning to suspect that we ought rather to hail it as a creator and governor of the realm of matter... 5

The tendency of modern physics is to resolve the whole material universe into waves, and nothing but waves. These waves are of two kinds: bottled-up waves, which we call matter, and unbottled waves, which we call radiation or light. If annihilation of matter occurs, the process is merely that of unbottling imprisoned wave-energy and setting it free to travel through space. These concepts reduce the whole universe to a world of light, potential or existent, so that the whole story of its creation can be told with perfect accuracy and completeness in the six words: ‘God said, Let there be light’.

Bernard d'Espagnat
"The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment."

Martin Rees
In the beginning there were only probabilities. The universe could only come into existence if someone observed it.

Freeman Dyson, Infinite in All Directions (1988), p. 18
What philosophical conclusions should we draw from the abstract style of the superstring theory? We might conclude, as Sir James Jeans concluded long ago, that the Great Architect of the Universe now begins to appear as a Pure Mathematician, and that if we work hard enough at mathematics we shall be able to read his mind. Or we might conclude that our pursuit of abstractions is leading us far away from those parts of the creation which are most interesting from a human point of view. It is too early yet to come to conclusions.

Physicists, especially the physicists of small things and microcosmic states, see matter and energy vanishing, virtual particles popping in and out of apparently 'nothing' and the indeterminacy of any material state. Some are beginning to see that information, that exists but has zero mass and carries zero energy, and therefore not material at all, is primary over both matter and energy and may even give rise to them. 6

What is energy? In physics, energy is the property that must be transferred to an object in order to perform work on, or to heat, the object

Wiki describes energy as " property" . Why is energy not simply the ' force ' of Gods word in action? they talk about an object. But matter is not an object. matter is energy.... 2

W.L.Craig: The quantum vacuum is not what most people envision when they think of a vacuum-that is, absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it's a sea of fluctuating energy, an arena of violent activity that has a rich physical structure and can be described by physical laws.

Space Is Not Empty, It’s Actually Full of Energy: The Quantum Vacuum

Quantum physicists discovered that physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature. This is also known as "the Vacuum" or "The Zero-Point Field."

“A century from now, it will be well known that: the vacuum of space which fills the universe is itself the real substratum of the universe; vacuum in a circulating state becomes matter; the electron is the fundamental particle of matter and is a vortex of vacuum with a vacuum-less void at the center and it is dynamically stable; the speed of light relative to vacuum is the maximum speed that nature has provided and is an inherent property of the vacuum; vacuum is a subtle fluid unknown in material media; vacuum is mass-less, continuous, non viscous, and incompressible and is responsible for all the properties of matter; and that vacuum has always existed and will exist forever….Then scientists, engineers and philosophers will bend their heads in shame knowing that modern science ignored the vacuum in our chase to discover reality for more than a century.”

At the turn of the nineteenth century, physicists started to explore the relationship between energy and the structure of matter. In doing so, the belief that a physical, Newtonian material universe that was at the very heart of scientific knowing was dropped, and the realization that matter is nothing but an illusion replaced it. Scientists began to recognize that everything in the Universe is made out of energy. 1

What’s even more fascinating is that the “stuff” within this space can be accessed and used. This was experimentally confirmed when The Casimir Effect illustrated zero point or vacuum state energy, which predicts that two metal plates close together attract each other due to an imbalance in the quantum fluctuations.

Most of what we refer to as “reality” is actually something we can’t perceive with our physical senses!

Tapping the Zero Point Energy  Moray B. King
What comes first, mind or matter? ZFIq1Hd

What comes first, mind or matter? G9k15kN

1. https://www.collective-evolution.com/2018/06/07/space-is-not-empty-its-actually-full-of-energy-the-quantum-vacuum/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
3. http://quantumenigma.com/nutshell/notable-quotes-on-quantum-physics/
4. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg
5. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Jeans
6. https://www.quora.com/What-did-Werner-Heisenberg-mean-when-he-said-%E2%80%9CThe-first-gulp-from-the-glass-of-natural-sciences-will-turn-you-into-an-atheist-but-at-the-bottom-of-the-glass-God-is-waiting-for-you%E2%80%9D

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4What comes first, mind or matter? Empty The laws of logic and reason Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:24 am

Otangelo


Admin

The laws of logic and reason themselves are conceptual in nature. They can't exist apart from something capable of understanding concepts. However they are not subjective - left up to the individual observer to determine - rather they are more like laws of mathematics, which are also conceptual in nature.
However we find these conceptual principals present and active in the universe as we encounter it - totally separate from our capacity to understand them. So they are not up to the subjective observer, but instead rely on some metaphysical framework that natural science cannot fully account for.
I wouldn't say that the laws of reason "exist" as we do - for those are different levels of existence. However neither can we say they do not "exist", as they are independent of observation or even a physical phenomenon.
Consciousness itself shares in and overlaps these same principles.
I do not say that disembodied existence is totally necessary for what I am suggesting - although if our only reference of "existence" is this 3d physical coil - then I can understand why that might be the assumption.
The Bible teaches that we are more than our bodies - that our beings are made up of 3 essential components:

1. The Spirit: this is the essence and core of consciousness and existence. On the spirit level, we are connected to God's Spirit which is our ontological origin, and is the basis for our individuality.

2. The Soul: the soul is the point of contact between the spirit and the physical body. It is what we might refer to as the mind or the psyche, and is intimately connected with our physical brains to carry our the functions of spirit in the physical world.

3. The physical body - for interacting with the physical world.

However not all 3 are necessary for existence. The only ontologically necessary part of our being is the Spirit which exists apart from our physical manifestations. This spirit has a "body" but it exists in a different mode than our biological vessels. I would describe it as if we were 4th dimensional beings interacting with tools and programs to experience the 3d world - much as we play a gaming console to simulate a 2d world.

Our spirits exist in a different direction (shall we call it "out") which we cannot perceive with our physical senses. We can perceive it conceptually and see the effects of non-physical phenomenon affecting the natural universe. When we die, our existence as 3 dimensional beings changes back into spirit.

The idea is not some ghostly disembodied existence. That is a crude estimation of what we believe. Rather I would say that our true "body" is not physical.

That there are proven concepts and realities that exist apart from observable phenomenon should serve as an adequate example of metaphysical reality that transcends the physical world of observable phenomenon. That our consciousness shares in and experiences these metaphysical realities just shows the incongruity and willful ignorance of materialism. There was a discussion recently about the laws of mathematics and the incompleteness theorem, which I strongly recommend that you read. 1

1. Austin Shiloh

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5What comes first, mind or matter? Empty Re: What comes first, mind or matter? Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:57 pm

Otangelo


Admin

Max Planck, a physicist so wise,
Won a Nobel Prize, to our surprise,
For quantum theory, a revelation grand,
That changed the way we understand.

But more than just a scientific mind,
Planck had a philosophy that was hard to find,
He believed that consciousness was fundamental,
That matter was derivative, not so monumental.

We cannot get behind consciousness, he said,
It's the foundation, the bedrock, the ultimate thread,
Everything we talk about, everything we see,
Postulates consciousness, it's our guarantee.

So let us pause and ponder this thought,
That consciousness is what everything has wrought,
It's not just a byproduct of physical stuff,
But the very essence that makes everything enough.

Max Planck, a physicist, a philosopher too,
His insights still relevant, ringing true,
Let us embrace this idea, let it guide us along,
And see how much more we can learn and belong.

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