ElShamah - Reason & Science: Defending ID and the Christian Worldview
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ElShamah - Reason & Science: Defending ID and the Christian Worldview

Otangelo Grasso: This is my library, where I collect information and present arguments developed by myself that lead, in my view, to the Christian faith, creationism, and Intelligent Design as the best explanation for the origin of the physical world.


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Behe, the edge of evolution

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1Behe, the edge of evolution Empty Behe, the edge of evolution Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:40 pm

Otangelo


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Behe, the edge of evolution

The book "edge of evolution" is principally about the probability of new protein-protein binding sites arising by chance and necessity. Behe says that experimental evidence (mostly chloroquine resistance) shows such protein-protein binding sites to be difficult to evolve by chance mechanisms. He says the empirical (extrapolation) of the "edge" of evolution is no more than two coordinated protein-protein binding sites could have evolved in a lineage in all the time available on earth. The flagellum has perhaps dozens of such sites.
It is a quantitative argument.

Recall the example of sickle cell disease. The sickle cell mutation is both a life saver and a life destroyer. It fends off malaria, but can lead to sickle cell disease. However,hemoglobin C-Harlem has all the benefits of sickle, but none of its fatal drawbacks. So in western and central Africa, a population of humans that had normal hemoglobin would be worst off, a population that had half normal and half sickle would be better off, and a population that had half normal and half C-Harlem would be best of all. But if that’s the case, why bother with sickle hemoglobin? Why shouldn’t evolution just go from the worst to the best case directly? Why not just produce the C-Harlem mutation straightaway and avoid all the misery of sickle? The problem with going straight from normal hemoglobin to hemoglobin C-Harlem is that, rather than walking smoothly up the stairs, evolution would have to jump a step. C-Harlem differs from normal hemoglobin by two amino acids. In order to go straight from regular hemoglobin to C-Harlem, the right mutations would have to show up simultaneously in positions 6 and 73 of the beta chain of hemoglobin. Why is that so hard? Switching those two amino acids at the same time would be very difficult for the same reason that developing resistance to a cocktail of drugs is difficult for malaria—the odds against getting two needed steps at once are the multiple of the odds for each step happening on its own. What are those odds? Very low. The human genome is composed of over three billion nucleotides. Yet only a hundred million nucleotides seem to be critical, coding for proteins or necessary control features. The mutation rate in humans (and many other species) is around this same number; that is, approximately one in a hundred million nucleotides is changed in a baby compared to its parents (in other words, a total of about thirty changes per generation in the baby’s three-billion-nucleotide genome, one of which might be in coding or control regions). In order to get the sickle mutation, we can’t change just any nucleotide in human DNA; the change has to occur at exactly the right spot. So the probability that one of those mutations will be in the right place is one out of a hundred million. Put another way, only one out of every hundred million babies is born with a new mutation that gives it sickle hemoglobin. Over a hundred generations in a population of a million people, we would expect the mutation to occur once by chance. That’s within the range of what can be done by mutation/selection.

To get hemoglobin C-Harlem, in addition to the sickle mutation we have to get the other mutation in the beta chain, the one at position 73. The odds of getting the second mutation in exactly the right spot are again about one in a hundred million. So the odds of getting both mutations right, to give hemoglobin C Harlem in one generation in an individual whose parents have normal hemoglobin, are about a hundred million times a hundred million (10^16). On average, then, nature needs about that many babies in order to find just one that has the right double mutation. With a generation time of ten years and an average population size of a million people, on average it should take about a hundred billion years for that particular mutation to arise—more than the age of the universe. 

Hemoglobin C-Harlem would be advantageous if it were widespread in Africa, but it isn’t. It was discovered in a single family in the United States, where it doesn’t offer any protection against malaria for the simple reason that malaria has been eradicated in North America. Natural selection, therefore, may not select the mutation, and it may easily disappear by happenstance if the members of the family don’t have children, or if the family’s children don’t inherit a copy of the C-Harlem gene. It’s well known to evolutionary biologists that the majority even of helpful mutations are lost by chance before they get an opportunity to spread in the population. If that happens with C-Harlem, we may have to wait for another hundred million carriers of the sickle gene to be born before another new C-Harlem mutation arises.



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2Behe, the edge of evolution Empty Re: Behe, the edge of evolution Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:55 pm

Otangelo


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M. J. BEHE (2009): An interesting paper appeared recently in an issue of the journal Genetics, “Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution”. As the title implies, it concerns the time one would have to wait for Darwinian processes to produce some helpful biological feature (here, regulatory sequences in DNA) if two mutations are required instead of just one. It is a theoretical paper, which uses models, math, and computer simulations to reach conclusions, rather than empirical data from field or lab experiments, as The Edge of Evolution does. The authors declare in the abstract of their manuscript that they aim “to expose flaws in some of Michael Behe’s arguments concerning mathematical limits to Darwinian evolution.” Unsurprisingly (bless their hearts), they pretty much do the exact opposite.

In their paper (as I write in my reply) “They develop a population genetics model to estimate the waiting time for the occurrence of two mutations, one of which is premised to damage an existing transcription-factor-binding site, and the other of which creates a second, new binding site within the nearby region from a sequence that is already a near match with a binding site sequence (for example, 9 of 10 nucleotides already match).”

Consider that the point mutation rate is roughly one in a hundred million (1 in 10^Cool. So if two specific mutations had to occur at once, that would be an event of likelihood about 1 in 10^16. On the other hand, under some conditions they modeled, the likelihood would be about 1 in 10^12, ten thousand times more likely than the first situation. Durrett and Schmidt (2008) compare the number they got in their model to my literature citation1 that the probability of the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite is an event of order 1 in 10^20, and they remark that it “is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given.” The implied conclusion is that I have greatly overstated the difficulty of getting two necessary mutations. Below I show that they are incorrect.

R. Durrett (2008): Results concerning the onset of cancer due to the inactivation of tumor suppressor genes give the distribution of the time until some individual in a population has experienced two prespecified mutations and the time until this mutant phenotype becomes fixed in the population. In this article we apply these results to obtain insights into regulatory sequence evolution in Drosophila and humans. In particular, we examine the waiting time for a pair of mutations, the first of which inactivates an existing transcription factor binding site and the second of which creates a new one. Consistent with recent experimental observations for Drosophila, we find that a few million years is sufficient, but for humans with a much smaller effective population size, this type of change would take >100 million years

There is a growing body of experimental evidence that in Drosophila, significant changes in gene regulation can occur in a short amount of time, compared to divergence time between species. Ludwig et al. studied the evolution of the even-skipped stripe 2 enhancer in four Drosophila species. While expression is strongly conserved, they found many substitutions in the binding sites for bicoid, hunchback, Kruppel, and giant, as well as large differences in the overall size of the enhancer region. In addition, they uncovered several binding sites that have been gained and lost among these four species: a lineage-specific addition of the bicoid-3 binding site in D. melanogaster that is absent in the other species, a lineage-specific loss of the hunchback-1 site in D. yakuba, and the presence of an extra Kruppel site in D. pseudoobscura
relative to D. melanogaster.


Our previous work has shown that, in humans, a new transcription factor binding site can be created by a single mutation in an average of 60,000 years, but, as our new results show, a coordinated pair of mutations that first inactivates a binding site and then creates a new one is very unlikely to occur on a reasonable timescale.

For population sizes and mutation rates appropriate for Drosophila, a pair of mutations can switch off one transcription factor binding site and activate another on a timescale of several million years, even when we make the conservative assumption that the second mutation is neutral.




For population sizes and mutation rates appropriate for Drosophila, a pair of mutations can switch off one transcription factor binding site and activate another on a timescale of several million years, even when we make the conservative assumption that the second mutation is neutral. This theoretical result is consistent with the observation of rapid turnover of transcription factor binding sites in Drosophila and gives some insight into how these changes might have happened. 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2581952/?fbclid=IwAR2fK6xFK0hzgoCyOhwnPZsCPA5TfM3KXc6XsNRIHh5RuNYAkpI2Q7s4D10

Furthermore:
To get hemoglobin C-Harlem, in addition to the sickle mutation we have to get the other mutation in the beta chain, the one at position 73. The odds of getting the second mutation in exactly the right spot are again about one in a hundred million. So the odds of getting both mutations right, to give hemoglobin C Harlem in one generation in an individual whose parents have normal hemoglobin, are about a hundred million times a hundred million (10^16). On average, then, nature needs about that many babies in order to find just one that has the right double mutation. With a generation time of ten years and an average population size of a million people, on average it should take about a hundred billion years for that particular mutation to arise—more than the age of the universe. 
The edge of evolution, M.Behe



Last edited by Otangelo on Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:51 am; edited 3 times in total

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Otangelo


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Diverse mutational pathways converge on saturable chloroquine transport via the malaria parasite’s chloroquine resistance transporter

Summers et. al. showed that when malaria developed CQ resistance, each path required at least 2 mutations before any benefit is seen. Two, not one, so irreducible, which is why it took significantly longer (larger population) to develop CQ than other drug resistance.

This study provides detailed insights into the workings of a protein that is a key determinant of drug resistance in the malaria parasite. We found that two main lineages of mutational routes lead to chloroquine transport via the chloroquine resistance transporter (PfCRT) and that a low level of chloroquine transport is conferred by as few as two mutations. However, the attainment of full transport activity is a rigid process that requires the mutations be added in a specific order to avoid decreases in chloroquine transport. Our finding that diverse forms of mutant PfCRT are all limited in their capacity to transport chloroquine indicates that resistance should be overcome by reoptimizing the chloroquine dosage.

https://www.pnas.org/content/111/17/E1759?fbclid=IwAR1gcphW_4nTmkOXeG7CiCpvugT-8ykLyE3r7q69puqh9HUvtUz5ukze4I8

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